Diary Entry 259. "The Taste of Orange" ( 2:3 Diary Entry with Swasthik Iyengar)

[00:00:00] Diary listeners, welcome back to our time with Swasthik or Swazi from Good Luck Tattoo NYC. It was really hard to name this next piece. I do know now that this is going to be a three-part diary entry. Me and Swazi had a lot of fun just talking and just exploring a lot of different ideas.

[00:00:29] That being said, I'm calling the second piece The Taste of Orange and I think you'll find out why. Thank you listeners. Enjoy. Welcome to The Apprenticeship Diaries where raw meets refined. Let's be real, we're still working on refined. What it took, what it takes and the stories that are made. Join us as we learn from professionals about how their stories begin.

[00:01:06] And so I always feel like after like going back to my roots, I don't know, I have more ideas and and like, you know, happiness goes a long way in what you put out in your work. When you're happy, you're just creating. I know if I'm really, I'm creating and I'm like we were saying we're only human. I'm not painting like I'm in a painting flow state right now. I'm painting a lot. That's great.

[00:01:35] I didn't do that last year because the move took a real big, it was a big transition. Yeah, well? Not easy, you know. I know you're talking about painting, but I definitely want to know about that. Yeah. Your move. Yeah. Continue about painting. I didn't want to cut you off. No, no, no, no. Good. Good. So right now I'm, but like, you never know. I was talking to lovely Timothy Hoyer about it, like, cause he's amazing. He's so inspiring and tattooing over 30 years, you know? Incredible.

[00:02:03] And I just said, oh man, Timothy, I'm kind of just painting right now. I just want to roll with it because you never know when that switch turns off. Mm-hmm. Cause we are human. Yeah. I go through phases. Yeah. Um, and like, routine is, is, is a challenge for me. And so therefore I need boundaries, um, and boundaries with myself to help me have a routine. Um, and which makes me just like, you know, at peace with myself. Yeah.

[00:02:34] Um, yeah, I, um, yeah, that's, that's pretty much it really. I just feel like. You have to. Yeah. I feel like my last trip to India went to Maha Kumbh Mela, which happens once every 144 years. So what is it? It's a big festival. It's a big festival. It's called Maha Kumbh Mela. Okay. Um, and it's all of the barbers.

[00:03:00] Um, yeah, when you get them, you have a little read up on it, you know, to be in this lifetime, to witness it with my mom and my aunt. Really? I know. Oh, but you know, literally once every 144 years. Um, why that number? Well, it happens once every 12 years. So Maha Kumbh Mela is, is 12 times 12. So 144 years. Yep. That makes sense. It's interesting. Super interesting.

[00:03:27] And I think, I think ever since going like my art at the moment, I've been really drawn to like, actually, like I've been doing a lot more skulls and deathly kind of things, um, which was never really something I, I always loved the concepts of life and death, rebirth and destruction and create all of that kind of stuff, you know? Um, but I'm feeling like I'm like, yeah, just looking at like, just different, like, I don't know.

[00:03:57] Like, um, and I don't know if it's also because like being in America, it's like that American traditional tattooing has got such a rich history and it's so palpable. So cool. Mm-hmm. Being here when, being here, you know, like, and a lot of what clients want is like my version of a skull or my version of a snake. So it's really going back to traditional concepts. Yeah. Um, so that's awesome.

[00:04:22] So right now I'm, yeah, doing a lot more like, yeah, skulls and things. Um, and, um, no, it's been good. It's been really, really good. Well, skulls are, um, you know, I, I think that they're, um, a confrontation of our mortality and that's what they represent. And I think it's important to keep death close and close at mind. And yes.

[00:04:51] And, you know, I have in my home, um, a lot of skulls, a lot of beautiful dead things. I like to keep death very close to me. Um, because I think that's what you have to keep in mind all the time is, um, you know, one, how do you want people to speak about you when you're not there? Yeah. Um, you know, what kind of impact, I mean, not to be too self-involved, but like if you were

[00:05:19] to choose and you know, what, what's the kind of marks that you want to make in the world and on people and the impact, because it does all have meaning. It does. Because we were talking about this and being like, it'd be like nothing makes you more happier than being in service. Yeah. And it comes like, yeah. How do you want people? Do you want, like, I don't, you know, you, you're going to have lovers and haters. Everyone. If you're doing something, then yes. Yes.

[00:05:50] But at the end, yeah, I, I, you know, would hope and like that, you know, I think all tattoos would like the hope that, that they'd be remembered. It's like that person was super kind. I had a love variance. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like, yes. You know, I think you should do that in any choice you make, you know, like when you're, when you're risk assessing and stuff like that, you know, would I be comfortable dying during this?

[00:06:17] Would like, what's the worst case scenario? And, uh, you know, if, if, if you can die doing it, then you know, then the answer is yes. So it's good that you've been in a yes phase because it means that you're embracing a lot. And yeah, you know, I think that's really, really good. Thank you. Yeah, dude. This has been, I mean, this is wonderful. I did want to ask you too, like, how do you know Josh and Travis from, um, Beautiful.

[00:06:47] Aren't they? I love them. You've met them, right? You've met them. I have. They're probably like, I need to get you too in, cause I'm always talking their ear off. Oh, great. They're like, I had the pleasure and the honor of being able to do a volume for Black Daggers. Nice. Oh, that's awesome. Um, which was just so honoring because, oh my God, there's so many great artists that have exhibited volumes.

[00:07:14] Um, it was just to, they're nothing short of professional and lovely and kind. Yes. And the, the honor of meeting them in the physical world. Yes. Last year at Pagoda, um, to shake their hands and they were just sweethearts. I got to buy them a drink and just to say thank you. And I didn't realize Travis was a painter himself.

[00:07:40] And I started following his painting page and his work is just magical. It's stunning. It's stunning. Um, a lot of really beautiful wood cuts and stuff like that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, and I'm just always happy to support good people. So every time they, so I did the Jesus book and then the current sex book. I didn't, I haven't seen the sex book yet, but I do own the Jesus book. So I already have your work then. Yeah. Awesome.

[00:08:08] You got to do something like, I, I reckon, yeah, I, I just sort of was like, I reached to them to, to be like, Hey, can I do a vote? You know? Cause I. Right. Well, you're very prolific from what I understand you paint a lot. So that was one thing they required. I have talked to them, but I, I don't have a body of work like that. And it does you. Again, I have a lot of admiration for, you know, like I was saying, I, I can't put myself to the level of a normal private studio owner. I can't put myself to a level of, you know, a shop owner.

[00:08:38] I really have a lot of blessings and I have not fully created like such a body of work with such consistency. So that's what they look for. And you fit their, their wants very well. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, they're so, um, yeah, they're, they're, they're wonderful. Aren't they? They just said. It's such a great, I do get there. I probably have your volume.

[00:09:06] Um, I apologize for not being aware. I'm just so happy to get all the books, but I have, I have quite a bit. I've been a, I've been a, um, subscription holder for a while now. And I just love the mission of black dagger books. I really think it's beautiful. They're amazing collector items. Um, I can't wait to see, you know, years from now what happens, but if nothing else, you know, you got this beautiful, I mean, it's like the, the, this podcast that you get

[00:09:36] this beautiful moment of time and somebody's life and career and everything. And it, it's just, they're very well done books. They always do a great sticker with it. They, I mean, it's classy. It's, it's beautiful. It's such a successful and really, I, I love, I will, I will hands down support them all the time if they do. And that's about a different concept of just honestly, because they are really lovely humans.

[00:10:05] And no, that goes a long way for me. Kindness is so important. And I, you know, we're all like, this isn't like, we're not in it for the money. Well, no one's in money. Do you know what I mean? We love what we do and, and we know how hard it is and the struggle can be real. And, and the world's in a crazy place right now. And, you know, we don't have a lot of extra expenditure, you know?

[00:10:32] So it's like when people are kind and nice, we all kind of support each other. Do you know what I mean? Like if they turn around, yo, we're doing a book about, I feel the same way with my friends that do stoned books, you know, like, um, we're doing this thing about veganism or, or it could be about plants. Um, I'd be, I'd paint, uh, I'd paint for them. You know what I mean? As you said, the community is very important. Yes. It's very, very important.

[00:11:00] Like we, we're in a subculture that isn't like, I would say it's still kind of considered taboo and it's not a rocket. Like, oh yeah. I belong to a very conservative church and I still, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm like, you know, I'm like the most, definitely the most tattooed person there. So believe me, I understand. And I, I am like the circus when I go there, but I like, you know, I don't mind it because I think it's wonderful.

[00:11:26] Um, and I get so much joy out of them, you know? Um, but yeah, there, we're definitely, there's one man at our shop or at our shop at our, um, at our church who is emphatic that it's, that it's not okay. And I was like, okay, well, you know, I said, please tell people that I said, look, I, I said, honestly, the, the beautiful thing about tattooing is I've never had to force anybody to do anything. Yes.

[00:11:55] They come and they want it. Yeah. So if you're going out there and, and you're giving them doubt or hesitancy about it. Good. Yes. Good. I think that that's warranted, you know, give them, give them something to postulate and consider. Absolutely. It's very important. That's right. And everyone's feeling, yeah, everyone's feelings and opinions are valid. Do you know what I mean? I'm not strapping them down and holding them there and making them get tattooed.

[00:12:24] There are many people, like, I still get, people get asked like, Oh, why'd you do, do you ever think about how it's going to look when you're old? And I'm just like, man, it's like, you know, I, yeah, I'm not asking. I'm scared of way different things about getting old. Yeah. Yeah. Way, way different things. I know. I feel you. I know. It's like, it's for some, it's not for others.

[00:12:49] It's like, and you know, it, it is a very small subculture and everyone sort of knows everything. Like everything. And I think, you know, it's important, like to have community and it's, it's just, yeah, dude, I don't know. I, I like, no, you do know. I think you do know. I mean, it's just that, you know, you gotta be fair to it. And that's what I tell them. I'm like, you know, Christ sets on our heart or whatever you prescribe to.

[00:13:18] We're all called differently in this world. And that has been, you know, what's been put on your heart and your experience. And I respect it. You know, it's not for me to argue you. Totally. Yeah. But if you want to put that out in the world, I'm fine with it. It doesn't, it honestly, I'm glad for it because I think there's a, you know, tattooing, it can be addictive and it can be something that people really jump into too quickly.

[00:13:46] And look, if you're, if you're putting out a campaign that makes people think twice, I think that's good. I think that's great. Totally. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's great. And I just. Not going to hurt me any. No, no. Yeah. But I think it's important to have like, you know, a level of integrity in this craft. Like for example, I'm not going to tattoo like straight up tribal hands on someone who doesn't have a lot of tattoos because it's just for many different reasons.

[00:14:16] Like, you know, I just like someone that for me, someone that's heavily tattooed. If there's a little blowout on the hand, they just know the process. They're not. Ah, yeah. Yes. Someone that has never had tattoos, like it could cause some serious like battles and like stuff, you know? So, and also just like, because it's like so sacred. It's like. When hands are. My hands are even a lot. You know, I don't think people really realize that.

[00:14:47] How emotional hands are just as a thing, like, you know, I'm speaking with my hands right now. And they are like if say you're encountering somebody who can't hear. Yeah. They're looking to your hands for a lot of social cues like your body and your body language. It speaks. And if you put something on there to distract or that isn't, you know, your hands are. I mean, not to be crude about it, but it's your money makers. It's your. It's a huge social thing.

[00:15:16] You shake hands, you know? Yes. I know in India there's there's different rules for like you only shake hands with one. Yeah. Yeah. And you eat with your hands like there's there's rules to hands. And I think that that's that's very. I mean, it's. I think that's very personal to have boundaries within just being a certain artist like I have certain boundaries with mine spiritually. It's just certain things I will not do. Yeah. That are that are emphatic.

[00:15:46] And it's like, look, dude, there's people that don't have these boundaries. You can go and you can get what you want, but you're not going to force me to tattoo you. Yeah. And do something I find that's going to hurt you and hurt me and hurt me. Yeah. Whether that be a particular motif that you don't. You know what I mean? Or. Yeah. Because we know we, you know, we know better. I mean, I have to imagine part of what you're paying for is advice and and going to somebody

[00:16:16] who knows a little bit more than you about what they're doing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Totally. Yep. Yeah. And that is just important. I that's always been like, even when I started, like, you know, I've had some wonderful I've been blessed to have some really important and like valuable advice from gurus in my career.

[00:16:45] Unfortunately, I didn't find a proper mentorship with the people I initially worked for. But I found that through mainly like, like legends in America. Through. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so. I just remember like one, one piece of advice that Robert Ryan gave to me was like, don't worry about the background noise, just keep doing what you do, which is like just like

[00:17:14] your sadhana, your practice, keep painting. And just like artist integrity and self integrity, integrity is really, it's just, it's really important. You know what I mean?

[00:17:25] And I, I think that in all things, like, it's, it's so cool when you see like someone posts, say, like a redraw of, I don't know, like a tattooer did like a sheep and they redid that flash and then and being like, you know, redrawn from so so and so like that's integrity.

[00:17:46] That's just like little examples like that, you know, and yeah, I think, I think nowadays it's, yeah, there's just, it's nice to have those boundaries. It's really good to have like. It is. And I'm glad that you had. I mean, I, I'm glad that you found your mentors along the way, you know, that's really good. Yeah, I found them.

[00:18:15] I didn't find them, unfortunately, in my early days, like, it wasn't a, it was a time, let's say it was a time I learned a lot of valuable lessons, but it wasn't a forever. 20s suck. Yeah. 20s suck. You don't think they're gonna, but they do. They do. You learn a lot. You look, I think you, I learn a lot.

[00:18:39] I think I learned where I stand in what, in like things that do not put up with misogyny or racism or discrimination against how one identifies or sexual. Like that is just like, it's, it's obvious. Do you know what I mean? And well, I mean, you learn a lot just, just about your own ideas of things. Like, yes, you're, you're. Confronted with the realities of all these things that you thought. Yes.

[00:19:10] I don't, I don't know, like the rules of engagement, you kind of understand them because you're, you know, I don't know about you, but like, for me, it was very much so you learn grounding ethics and morals and all these things. And then you go out into the world and then you see. Yeah. You see what really happens and you see the tests of those things and you really have to, um, and you know, so good that you stand up to those things.

[00:19:38] You can't get harder than a tattoo apprenticeship, dude. Mm hmm. Is that these people like this coming back from like sex, drugs, rock and roll. Yes. Like it's heavy. I'm so happy now that tattooing is whatever you want to make it now. Like I'm, I'm like proud. I'm really happy for that too. And read books and not be rock and roll. And there's a place for, for everyone. You know, I agree. I'm so happy in myself to be that person.

[00:20:06] And, and to me, like what I think is rock and roll might not be what you think is rock and roll. Like I love, like nerding out with legends that are a lot older, that are wiser, that have stories. They're not going out, but they're so interesting because they're so fat and intelligent and wise. And I think that's rock and roll to me, you know? So it's everywhere. It can be anything, you know, anything you want it to be.

[00:20:30] And, and it's, it's, I love that, that, you know, there is an appreciation for every and all things. And there is no judgment on whatever you're into. You know, if you want to go on party, I'm happy for you, man. Like whatever, happy. Do you? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and if you want to stay at home and like read Bhagavad Gita or the Bible, I'm happy for you too. Yeah.

[00:20:59] Whatever you do, what makes you happy at the end of the day? Cause I was saying to my friend, I feel like collectively in the world, our mental health is just like, just with everything going down, we really are in this place. I feel like I want community more than ever. Yeah. Like the phones. I mean, yeah. We're being connected in a way that I think we really have to adjust to. And, and the boundaries have to adjust to those things.

[00:21:28] So of course, like I said, there's going to be a breaking point where people, like you said, they're, they're going to be hungry for taking a walk and getting some sunshine with their dog because. Yeah. That's too many hours being everywhere else that they're not really. Yeah. Not really. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, Oh my God, my eyes, they hurt my occipital bone. Like what the hell, what is this headache? And it's all because you've been just like this to a screen.

[00:22:00] Yeah. Yeah. It's no, you're right. Yeah. No, totally. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What was it like to move? Like I've never moved cross country and you've done it multiple times in your life. What is that like? It's it's it will AIDS. It's not easy. There's a lot, you know, you have to take into consideration is like, just not even like

[00:22:23] the logistics, but also like, okay, are you leaving your community behind like, you know, like friendships. So, you know, I, to, to, to a degree, I am selfish. You know, I moved for my career, you know, I, I put, I put that at the top of like, you

[00:22:49] know, my, but to be fair, all my very close friends, they all got married and had kids and, you know, live like it was just time for me. And so I don't think everybody is drawn to that. I think. No. Yeah. You know, I mean, it wasn't for me. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So the move in that sense was kind of easy because they, cause like, I'm the kind of person where I pick up the pages of where I leave off. I don't need to contact someone every day.

[00:23:17] You know, I, I'm actually a loner. I'm, I like being introverted. I don't, I can not speak to someone for six months and speak to them. And it just feels like we were talking like a minute ago. I'm the same dude. That's awesome. And that's, I, I like having that. I don't like getting too close. I just, I'm very, I'm a big fan of self-preservation and privacy. Well, there's a lot of responsibility to the rest.

[00:23:45] And if you feel like, if you feel like you're going to let someone down, which I always feel that way. I always am like, dude, don't get too close. I'm a, I'm a freaking mess. Like, dude, I'm like, I feel you. I feel you. And my favorite people are the kind of people that are just like you that can pick up the pages. Yeah, it is. And there's no expectations. Um, I, I feel like, you know, the move. Yeah.

[00:24:14] I guess logistically there was a lot to do. I had to get lawyers. I'm on a visa. I had to, I hooked up, you know, a lovely through a friend. I hooked up this apartment that I have like, and I was praying like to God every day because it's a lot of money to move. Yeah. I'm, I am not whinging about it, but like, you know, New York isn't really, it's not a cheap place.

[00:24:42] Um, what is it like for, cause the only way that I know about, um, becoming, you know, getting visas, getting your green card, things like that is through marriage here. Like that, from what I understand, that's like the, well, the only way you can do without being bankrupt. Cause it really is so expensive. So expensive. But, but you know, where there's a will, there's a way.

[00:25:07] And, uh, like I, you know, I gotta say, I think it's cool that America offers like this artist visa and that they're starting to see tattooing as something that is dignified and respected and, and you have the ability, it is a career. Yes. Um, so I'm meeting a lot of people that are on the same visa as me that are from different parts of the world.

[00:25:32] And you're bringing something that they can't find very commonly because, you know, you, you have your cultural roots. Like they're, they're not going to find that. Um, not authentically anyway, we could mimic it, but it would not be what they get from you. I, that's so kind of you. I appreciate just true. I'm glad it seems kind, but it's just true. I'm terrible with, with take.

[00:26:03] I, I, I, I, yeah, I, that's really, thank you for that. I, I guess I feel like, I feel like, yeah, it's cool that they offer that. And, and, um, okay. So yeah, I moved last year. It was really tough on me to be honest. Um, this year, I think after going to India and Maha Kumbh Mela, I had the best time with my mom. She hadn't seen me in a year and it was just so profound that I kind of feel like I got my shit together. That's awesome.

[00:26:33] I was just going to say, I'm sure it helps a lot to have the kind of mother you have. Yeah. She's so supportive. Yeah. Well, because, and, and too, I'm glad that you put that out on the podcast because, um, uh, our, our country, at least as far as I can tell, yeah. The biggest thing is that we want, we want to invite at least that I, I can embody or say anything about immigration.

[00:27:00] I want, I want people who come here to be innovative, to share their culture too. And, and what your mom said was so important. You're not going to mess around here. You're not going to do a bunch of drugs. You're going to work your ass off. Yes. And I mean, just hearing that, I'm like, I want you here. I want you everywhere. Like that's awesome. Yay mom.

[00:27:30] But it's the truth. It's true. I, you know, um, yeah, from that kind of view, it's, it's really fantastic that America offers this. Honestly, it is because. We'd be idiots not to. It's so, yeah. There's so much diversity in culture. It's just, dude, I, you know, I tattooed this, like I, I, I have the coolest clients at full stop. I believe you. And to their stories are amazing. Last week I had a whole row.

[00:27:59] I was tattooing like, um, musicians, hardcore kids, people in bands, people that have been bands in the eighties. And you know, America has a rich and wonderful history. It's authentic because through oppression and suffering came the world's greatest poetry to jazz, to art, to everything you know of. And I love, I love American people. I really do. I love because.

[00:28:29] Because yeah, because it's true though. It's like, you really have lived, you know, like I'm just so in awe when I hear like my clients that are like also my age, like about 40 being like, yeah, dude, like I was starting, I started going to shows when I was like 14. I was like, it was hard. And now I'm like totally vegan and straight edge. And because like I did, I got out of my system before I was 18. Like the stories are real. The authentic is real. Yeah.

[00:28:58] And I think like, um, yeah, it's the place, especially in New York is a melting pot of so many different cultures, uh, at people, you know, people, people's backgrounds that it just, it's a really special, it's a, it's a really special being here. Yeah. It's a really special time for me to be here.

[00:29:25] I was very interested because I've interviewed, I've interviewed some people from different places. And one of the people that I interviewed was from Italy and you know, Italy is, is such a place of like Western culture and art too. Like, um, in, in that realm, you know, you have the Greeks and, and all of the Renaissance paintings and things like that. Um, that's, that's more of like, you know, how we're kind of taught here. I wish I knew more about your culture.

[00:29:54] I do know a bit more than your average, just cause I'm a tattoo artist, but Eastern philosophy is really cool. And my dad, um, did a few martial arts and things that are very integrated. But when you talk to people in Italy, the one thing that he had to say, it was an older, um, not older, but like he was, had been tattooing for a while. And he said, you know, it's been very hard here to make tattooing into an art form.

[00:30:22] People see it like, like you said, kind of like the subversive culture and like, you know, criminals, you know, people in the military, you know, like that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And they, they want to see it like that. And he's like, it's been very hard to have them recognize it as art. And he's like, I love America because America, it's so boundless. You know, you guys are wild. You know, they say it's the wild, wild west. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:50] In many ways America reminds me more of India than Australia ever did. Yeah. Walk through Broadway and I see the beautiful, oh, like the church singing on the Sundays, man. It's like, like, I just, I, I like just walk into those churches and I, I'm like filled with love. My friend Sunil said that I should go to India. He's like, you would love it, Amy. You'd love it. You would love it. Just a little that I know, like the way we've connected. I just think that you would love it.

[00:31:19] I think, you know, there's really nothing I don't love about India. I've never been, but everything I've seen, I'm like, I love Bollywood. I love the dancing. I love the color. I love, I love the music, the food. Yes. Yeah. All of it. I got, I got, I'm very curvy. So I know they'd love me. Yeah. Mom would never have to tell me to eat. I'd be like, girl, give it to me. Girl, give it to me.

[00:31:48] You know, I think it's really cool that you and I have our, uh, independent, uh, spiritual practices, but this conversation has been so fulfilling for me because, you know, I, in terms of faith, uh, like obviously when you go to India, it's Hindu. I still think you're going to find so much like happiness, just being in the temple as well. I know I will go into some of those churches on a Sunday, just purely because the voice is so powerful.

[00:32:17] And I'm like, wait, I want some of this love. Well, I'm an artist and you're an artist. So yeah, I was talking with a friend of mine and she, we don't prescribe to the same faith. Um, she's very, um, she loves nature. Like that's where she finds God is in nature. And I said, of course, that's like God's greatest painting. Um, you know, nature is, uh, I mean, of course that's where you find it. Yeah. I mean, it's just so magnificent.

[00:32:46] Um, I said, I like the copy of the copy. So I love because I love people and because I love God, I love watching what human beings do when they wrestle with God. Yeah. I don't really care like how it comes out. I love the cathedrals. I love, I love the temples. I love, you know, I love all of that because, um, my friend, the same friend, she was like,

[00:33:14] do you, don't you think it's all the same? I said, no, I don't think it's all the same. Um, but I also don't feel like it's up to me to tell somebody to tell somebody what to look for. I know what I've found and I'm very happy for people when they find something. Yes. I don't think what they find is the same, but what I love is when they're seeking. Yes.

[00:33:41] Cause I think when you're seeking, you're going to find God and I have enough faith in God to know that, that God will help you find him. If you are looking. You know, that makes me really, that's just, yeah, that's the hairs on my, on my arms. Yeah. True. Because when I am tethering on the edges and I am lost and like I said, I'm human, man. You know what I mean? We all are. Yeah.

[00:34:11] Human. Human. And so when I'm tethering on the edges and I'm lost and I feel guilty cause I haven't spoken to God, my mom says, don't feel guilty. He's just, he's just, he's not angry. You're his child. Yeah. He's never going to be angry. Yeah. And it's when I stand in front of him and I speak to him and I, and I get emotional and I just, it's like, he's just remind, he's like, I'm here. Don't you feel like I'm always going to be here. Yeah.

[00:34:37] And I think going back to what we said earlier, like, I don't know, I don't know anything I'm seeking. I'm constantly seeking. Yeah. Um, it's good that you have that kind of reverence. Yeah. I think as I've gotten older, like a lot of the material things don't, don't, you know, when you're young, very shallow, I was very shallow, you know? Um, you were very typical, very typical. Yeah. Very typical. And no, it's good.

[00:35:05] It's, it's the process of things, you know? It is, you know, my mom says this funny thing. I like that you're honest though. Yeah. Yeah. And me too. I like that you're real. It's good. It's so it's this conversation that I'm having a great time. I am too. I, um, I love this thing that my mom and hard times she, you know, moms tend to advise, right? Like that's parents, that's their job. Mm hmm.

[00:35:29] And so sometimes it gets on my nerves and sometimes what it depends on how, what I'm feeling emotionally. Mm hmm. But she was, she'd always say like, don't expect to know what I know now because you're half my age. Yeah. That's why wisdom is defined as wisdom. Yes. It is burnt over time. Yes. You know, you have to go through the mistakes. Yeah.

[00:35:56] You have to go through falling down. My thing is for me is like the, I am a believer that the universe always sends you the same lesson until you learn it. Agreed. I think, um, that just makes us human. Do you know what I mean? We all have feelings.

[00:36:18] We all like, you know, I mean, it's just, it's just, it's, it's just that, you know, like you have, I think as you said, you're always, I think to always take this, the student perspective and to vacillate between mentorship and student, you know, like that, those two, you learn so much throughout it.

[00:36:42] But yes, I agree that like, you are going to be hit with the same force and challenge until you learn how to deal with it. And it's only bound to make you a better person. Totally. Yeah, totally. It, it, it, by seeking, these are only, these are only movements, positive movements. Mm hmm. Um, because. Yeah.

[00:37:11] Well, God sees your heart. So, yes, that's the other reason why your mom probably tried to give you a little bit of solace is because she, she knows that she knows where your heart is. And, and, you know, if you feel guilty, then you care enough to feel guilty. That's, that's a, that means that you're genuine and it means you actually care. Yeah.

[00:37:34] And, you know, uh, to, to realize that and to have that feeling means your heart's in the right place. So, you know, and God can see your heart. So, you know, at the end of the day, that's, I really think like, that's what it comes down to you. Like I'm trying my best to function in this world, to be a decent person. Yeah. Yeah. I probably have people at times, you know, Well, we do. That is what we do.

[00:38:03] We literally do. I think also I, you know, I've probably lashed out. I've probably, you know, hurt people. I've, I've also made people happy. And so I think now, I don't know, I don't know if it was the move, but I feel like this huge transformation in, in me. Um, and like, just finding myself, I don't know if it's because I am in a new country and I have faith to fall back on.

[00:38:33] Um, but I'm always like questioning like actions and behaviors and like, what is this? Like, what does this mean? Like everything I do, I try and do it with, um, thought with conscious thought. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:38:53] Or I would do stuff and it was so nonchalant and so selfish and didn't really think about the, you know, my, the consequences of it. This is my mom's always like for every reaction. Swasti. I've got to have to remember the truth. Part of that is just, you know, we're kind of blinded to a lot of things like our hormones are raging. I mean, you gotta keep in mind too.

[00:39:20] Like that's a lot of what gets us to breeding, you know, like we're not thinking about making a baby or anything like that, or the immense amount of responsibility, but the hormones are going. They're going to get about it, man. Just, just do it. Live your best life. Yeah. Live your best. Really? Yeah. And you know, as you get older, those things don't, they're not important. Yeah. They're not raging like that anymore. Yeah. I'm too old for that. I'm like, it's funny. It's like, I hit like, I don't know.

[00:39:50] I'm 38, man, you know, but I feel like I'm 45, 50. Like I, and I'm okay. I'm actually okay with it. I was laughing about how I was like, I'm so, this is natural order. It's like, you naturally progress out of being a deadbeat.

[00:40:09] Like, I'm not like, I just don't want to be like old and being hammered every night at shows when everyone at the show is like, you know, 30 years younger than me. Like, I, you know, it's just like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Like I'm in a place where I'm a bougie bitch. Like they said, I bring my pillows and shit. Like if somebody steps in my way at a show, I get, I, I'm just, I'm done. Like, I'm just like, you rude asshole.

[00:40:38] Like I get the whole, the whole show is ruined. Yeah. I know. It's funny. It's like, I, you know, me too. I went to a show not long ago and this girl, like bless her. She had like, I don't know. She was just stampeding through. She was young. She was carrying beers, but I just like, I was a little pissed off. I was like, we don't have time for it anymore. We don't, especially hardcore shows. What's beautiful. It's like, everyone's looking out for each other.

[00:41:04] No one's mushing anymore, which is great because I don't want, I've been in situations where I've been really severely. You're a small person. Yeah. And it's like nice. It's nice. I don't know. It's nice going to shows here because I don't, maybe, maybe I'm not, I'm going to the shows now that are more attracted to me where there is consideration.

[00:41:24] And I just like the guy friends that I, I have here and such gentlemen, man, they're always like letting me stand in front of them because more. They're just, I don't know. Yeah. Personally, I found a lot of inequity physically just because of my background. And so a lot of things when they appear dangerous or if I felt like, Ooh. Yeah. That that's going to hurt me. I just kind of, Hmm. Yeah.

[00:41:53] I'm not interested. Yeah. For sure. Can I ask you, how old were you when you, have you always been connected to God or is it you kind of, uh, is this recent? I always believed in God, but believing in God, as you well know, and having a relationship with God are different. Totally. And so it's, it's like the difference being, I know that India is a place, but I've never been there.

[00:42:22] I've never spent any time to visit India or, or put much effort into it, except for the few people that I've met from there learning about it. But it would be a completely different thing if I spent my time as you do going back and forth on a yearly basis and investing myself in the culture. So, um, I was, um, I think 40 or 39. I came to my faith late. Um, and it was through my parents.

[00:42:52] Um, so my therapist passed away. Yeah. And she was, she was huge. She was like a spiritual mother to me. You would have loved her. Everything that you talked about, about needing to meditate, um, having ritual in your life. And, um, uh, she would, you know, like she was the kind of therapist where, you know, you'd come in and she's like, ah, if you want to take your shoes off. She's like, do you want some tea? You know, she's like, if you want to bring your pet, bring your pet.

[00:43:21] Sometimes it's really helpful. And she just really taught me a lot. And so when she passed, I, I don't know. I went through this huge thing of, it's amazing that you've been talking a lot about your mother because I went through this huge, um, understanding of my own mother. And I experienced my therapist in a really great way towards the end of her life.

[00:43:47] Um, she had broken her hip a couple of years prior and she was cutting back her practice when that happened. And so we, we had kind of, we had been seeing each other since I was in my twenties. And so it had been a long relationship to the point of where now she needed help. And so I got the opportunity to visit her at her home, walk her dog for her because she was recovering from a hip surgery and she has a daughter, but that's like all the family that was close to her.

[00:44:15] And her poor daughter was always overwhelmed. Yeah. And, um, so Sasha needed help. And I, because my therapist always gave so much to me, I, I was really honored to be able, I mean, I, we went over and we weeded her garden. Sometimes I'd make her breakfast. I vacuum her house. And it just felt so good giving back to somebody that gave so much to me. Yeah. Well, she, it's like, it's this, you're a guru.

[00:44:46] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also it gave me a lot of peace because as you and I, we may, we might not have children, you know, I don't know. I don't close the door or anything. Somebody might give me a kid and I'll, I'll rise to the occasion of that. Like if, if God is like, you don't know shit girl, you need to have a kid.

[00:45:32] Yeah. My whole thing is, is like, well, I pray that either a God will take me out quickly. And so I won't be a burden on too many people or be, I'll, I'll have people the way that my therapist had people and they'll just show up for me. Yeah. When, when I need them, you know, like I, I pray that I'll have done enough in my life where people will show up for me.

[00:45:59] And if they don't, then I, I guess I'll die, you know, like, like, you know, like, what are you going to do? I mean, I don't, I think it's a, it's a weird thing to expect your child that they're necessarily going to be there for you. I've, I've seen a lot of instances where that's not the case. And so I, I, it gave me a lot of peace and to, to, you know, calm anything about when you're a woman, you're maternal, like that's just a gift you have.

[00:46:26] And I think that it's something that you're going to enact in the world, whether you have children or not. Yes. And, um, so when she passed, I went through this huge thing about like reverence for my own mother. And I really did. I felt like this, it was almost like how you feel about God. Like I felt like, uh, just an immense amount of gratitude and guilt for how I'd seen my mother.

[00:46:50] My mother has been a very challenging person in my, my life, which has been good, been very good, but very hard. Yeah. And, um, it sounds like your mom's the same. Yeah. Um, and my mom carries her own, uh, stuff that's very difficult. Yeah. For her. And so, you know, when you're a kid, you take a lot of those things on personally, you don't know that it doesn't have anything to do with you. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:17] So, so there was a lot of that kind of stuff that I had to learn. It was just her stuff. It wasn't, it didn't have anything to do with me. Yeah. And then I thought about when my therapist passed, how many of my friends just didn't even have the opportunity anymore to have conversations or arguments with their mothers anymore because their mothers were gone already. Yeah. And then I just started thinking about my mom and just the immense gift that I had. Yeah.

[00:47:46] To have a mom, you know, like, and to have a mom who gave a crap and who gave a crap enough to recognize the fact that she didn't have everything I needed. And so she elicited help from someone else. Yeah. Like that's huge. Like, yes. As a parent to think I have this kid that I just, I'm not reaching and, and rather than, you know, put it all on me or, or whatever, or demand.

[00:48:13] She, she always put me in alignment with help mentorship. That's why I have this podcast is because I, I'm so grateful for the mentorship that I've had.

[00:48:26] And, and if, if there is a legacy that I can have, it's maybe, you know, like you said, um, before we started recording, you know, to have a podcast where, you know, people aren't famous, but, but they're, they're needing, you know, uh, their stories to recognize. And they might lack that spark or that seed that gets them up and gets them impassioned.

[00:48:51] And if I can lay that on anyone's heart, that's great, you know, and I've had a lot of blessings in my life. So, you know, you're supposed to share those things. If you don't share them, it's not, that's not a good thing to show up in front of God with be like, oh, you gave me all this stuff and I did nothing with it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:13] So when I came to God, I really started thinking about all of that and it was in the height of COVID. And I had a lot of friends that had been friends for a long time that weren't friends anymore. And, uh, like I said, it was a season thing, but what I realized was that there was a lot of people in the background that I hadn't connected with, with a long time that were still there and still really rallying for me. Yeah.

[00:49:41] And one of those people were, were my, my family, but particularly my mom, cause she's always been a challenge. My dad and I have a very good, it's easier. Um, let's just put it that way. Yeah. And so I stopped, I really wanted to connect with her during that time, but my mom's so hard. Like, yeah, she, I mean, I was like, maybe we can bake together. She's like, my kitchen is not big enough. You can't do that. And I'm like, what? Yeah. What do you mean your kitchen isn't big enough?

[00:50:11] This is crazy. But the one thing, yeah. The one thing that my mom and my mom doesn't like anybody. I'm telling you, I don't think she'd like me if I wasn't her kid. She does not like anyone except for my pastor. Wow.

[00:50:31] I have maybe heard a total of maybe five critiques that I can't even really consider critiques because they're, they're just frustrations she has of him. Okay. But this pastor, she's like, I've only ever heard wonderful things about, and my mom doesn't have that kind of rapport with anybody. Wow. Yeah. So I was like, I got to meet this guy. Yeah.

[00:51:00] And I was like, she goes and she, she sees these people at this church once a week. Yeah. These people at this church spend more time with my mother than I do. That's funny. Yeah. So I was like, well, maybe if I go to church, maybe then I'll, I'll get closer to my mom. And both things happen. I, all things happen.

[00:51:20] I found a connection with a, a spiritual guru, if you will, my pastor, who I know is a good in between with my mother. We've always needed mediation because my mom's difficult and we do struggle with communication. So that's been a hardship. So it does help to have somebody that she respects highly as an intermediary. Yeah.

[00:51:45] And also I, I, I have this wonderful building relationship with God that I just seek more and more and more. Yeah. But also I have such a better connection with her and it's incredible. That's awesome. Yeah. So it's very similar what you've been discussing. It's been making me smile. Yeah. That's sharing. That's really beautiful.

[00:52:08] It's interesting to see how, I guess both of us, we, um, the connection with our, uh, mothers really became stronger when we, when we stepped into like spirituality and God. And I think that's amazing. I think they worry about us on that level. They do. I know, I know in Indian families, like, it's so interesting. Like the way a mom fixes things is like, you know, it's hilarious.

[00:52:38] It's we hear this all. I'll pray for you. I'll pray. I'll pray. You know, it's like, that's, that's just their way of showing love. And, um, My mom wasn't always that way. Your mom. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not to interject. I do agree with you, but the reason, I think a big reason why both my mom and I, cause she wasn't always into God. She found God through my therapist. My therapist was the conduit.

[00:53:06] She, she shared the therapist with me. She put me in alignment with my therapist and she had seen Alex before me. Yeah. And so when I was at my darkest points and I was off the rails, my mom went to see Alex and Alex heard her. And my mom was like, what do I do? Yeah. And Alex is like, well, you don't like anything she's doing. So you can't enable her. Yeah. And she's an adult.

[00:53:34] So we got to let her fail. And my mom hated that answer. She was like, but she could die. And Alex was like, yeah, you're right. She, she could die. And my mom was like, Alex, what do I do with that man? She goes, well, you pray. That's what you do. And she's like, and that's not nothing, but that's all you got. Emotional. That's really beautiful. Yeah.

[00:54:03] So it brought my mom to God and it brought her to praying and, um, you know, and that wasn't just me. That was a lot of going, goings on in my mother's life, but my, my therapist was a piece of that. And so my mom started praying for me and that was all she had. And I learned about that after I came back and I had been humbled and humiliated, but yeah, you're right. Mothers, they, they do. I'll pray for you. And it feels condescending when they say it.

[00:54:32] Cause it's like, oh yeah. You know, cause it's kind of like, not like gonna, well, I mean, okay. I just don't want us to die. Yeah. That's it. Cause you've encountered a mother who has had their child die. And my mom has always told me that's the worst thing any parent could ever experience. Totally. Yeah. She's like, I pray I get to die before you. Yeah.

[00:55:01] It's the, uh, it sounds like our parents would, my mom and your mom would get along really well. Swimmingly. They would love each other. He goes on about like, I just want to be dust on Krishna's feet. You know, I don't want to be birth. Yeah. But kind of like, I don't know, you know, what's so beautiful about them? Even if at times the relationship that we have with them is challenging, they were patient. I can't imagine.

[00:55:31] So much more than I, I think I am. I can't imagine the stress I could have caused on my mom and her patients, you know, like, she's going to come back to me. She's going to, she's going to come back. She's going to see the light. She's going to, you know, I, that's like, we, I can never understand as I am not a mom, you know, but I can, I can empathize and kind of get it, you know, um, I, I, and that's just not mom specific.

[00:56:00] That's to anyone that's a parent. Any, that's why it's, I think it's, it's cool, you know, with, with the people that we know, our friends that have kids, like it is such a, you know, such a selfless and like your, you know, you are in charge for someone else's life, you know? Yeah. It's huge. And I'm very grateful. I joke about like, you know, I call my, my Rudy, my son.

[00:56:30] Yeah. He is. He is my son. And I'm like, God, like, yeah. And of course I joke, but it's nothing like having a kid for sure. You know what I mean? No, no. But, but it's still, you know, it's, yeah, I think like. It's a responsibility though. Responsibility. Yeah, totally. And they are, they are, uh, uh, especially when they, well, when they're young and when

[00:56:58] they're old, um, when they're young, they don't know a lot. And so it's, it's, it is a lot of patience, but when they're older too, like both my cats are senior and they're wonderful. But, um, I've been telling people recently, I've been very blessed that in tattooing, I've never had a problem with tennis, a elbow, carpal tunnel, anything. Um, my hands are unstoppable. There's it's incredible. Yeah.

[00:57:23] But the one thing that I've been experiencing lately is that I have a cat that I didn't realize and I'm not complaining. Um, I'm very grateful and I hope she lives to be 35 though. I can't imagine this with that much more time, but she's 19 now and she's very stuck in this one way. And what she insists upon is that I sleep on my right shoulder. So I'm facing her in such a way that she can lay on my arm in this very particular way. Oh my God.

[00:57:53] And I'm, and I'm finding a shoulder impingement because this freaking cat insists that I do it. And the things. And so I've had to diverse in my diversify my sleeping. And so her response is to either stand right behind me, sit right behind me and purr really loud and lick my hair and just judge me or which means that I'm not sleeping.

[00:58:19] Um, she lays on the arm itself. So regardless, I have pressure on my arm and then she just sits on there, looks in my face, breathes in my face and purrs. And it's, it's the crazy. That's so cute. Adorable. Adorable, but man, the patients and, you know, they live to eat when they're older. They, they have a lot more moments of bowel dysfunction and throwing up and all this stuff.

[00:58:48] And, you know, it is, it's a lot of, I mean, you know, it's not the same as a child, but it is, it is a lesson in service, you know, service. I was, I always talk about that. My, my, my puppy actually cost me like 10 grand because you go through what I went through the initiation. Like, it's like a rite of passage. I, he went to the beach with me and we were all keeping an eye on him, but he's a chihuahua. Yeah. He's little bit of sand.

[00:59:14] And I was like, dude, the next day I was like, you don't look good. Rushed him to emergency, like four grand. I was just like, Oh my God. Yeah. You know, it's. Yeah. It's not a kid, but it's still a lesson. They still are expensive and you still got to love them. And yeah. Yeah. Like I honestly, it was, he's also just a great excuse. It's like, I, my lifestyle has changed as well. Like I think it is for kids too.

[00:59:42] I think they are an amazing excuse. Yes. Because I have to feed them every day. Yeah. It's hard to pick a kid up and like move all that shit around. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred. It's a, it's a nice excuse, but it's also a lot, you know, I called my brother the other day just for something very, very random. And I felt bad instantly because it was so stupid, but, but he was so sweet about it.

[01:00:10] And he, he made a concerted effort to consider me, even though he was in the midst of taking his daughter to soccer practice. And then after that, he would have to take his son to soccer practice and he wasn't going to get home until 10. And like all this stuff is going on. He has three kids and then he has a wife and then he's juggling. My stupid requests or what I consider it was stupid amongst all of that. I'm super gracious about it.

[01:00:37] But yeah, like, you know, they're, they're, um, my, I think the big thing with my family is they, they worry about, um, being fair to us, um, when they're not here, you know, like what it's going to be like when we're not, when they're not here. Yeah. And that's a concern. And they want to make sure that like my brother and I feel like we're, you know, equally loved and all that stuff.

[01:01:07] Yeah. Um, but I, I really like, I hope that I'm, I'm putting on their hearts these days that like, you don't have to worry about that. Like you've done a lot of work, man. Like you've created two people that are pretty rational and like each other. I mean, my brother and I are very different, but yeah, I really love his children. I really love him. I don't think that we're going to war over stupid stuff. Yeah.

[01:01:38] No, totally. I like the, you know, both of, you know, like you are a successful tattooist. You have like, you're doing well. Like they, I, yeah. Like your mom and dad created two beautiful people in this world. Yeah. Worry about. Yeah. I think that's why also, I think my mom's so insistent that me and my sister have a relationship because they do worry, like, you know, she has said like, when I have to, you know, like all you have is each other.

[01:02:06] And it's like, I think it's interesting how, um, God, it puts into perspective, like, what am I going to be like when I'm at her age? Now I'm like, like the things that used to interest me don't interest me. And I'm delving into a lot more of, uh, I don't know more. Yeah. Like we said, spiritual stuff. Yeah. And I, it's just like, it's, I don't know.

[01:02:36] It's going to be pretty cool. I can tell you that I've only talked to you for a few hours now, but I'm excited about what you're going to be. Yeah. I'm excited. We're all going to be awesome. Yeah. I think, well, I mean, I, for sure, will always maintain my dedication to, to constantly go back to my roots and, and, uh, to tattoo. I love tattooing. We both love tattooing. Yeah.

[01:03:04] Um, and art practice and yeah, I think, and then just creating community. Um, and, and yeah, it's, it, that, that's not been easy. Obviously moving countries, but I am finding, I am finding communities and, and like friendships, um, in subcultures that I like. Um, have you been to more places than, than New York so far?

[01:03:32] No, I, I mean, it's been a lot. I can't expect much from you. I'm sure it took a lot of grounding just to be there. I really haven't done any guest spots. I'm hoping to, I'm hoping to, to really just focus on my art and painting flash and tattooing for 2025 because, you know, people say like, like, I honestly, Instagram following has nothing

[01:03:59] like, you know, it, at the end of the day, it's reputation. And a friend says to a brother, I got tattooed by this person. You should get tattooed by this person. It's word of mouth and do word of mouth. You, I have to put in the hard work and I have to build a local clientele here. And that, that requires me studying and putting in the effort, not gallivanting around the world. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you.

[01:04:25] That sounds nice and dreamy, but like, I, you know, I also just really want to focus on, um, on building, uh, a clientele, um, because. Yes. Yes. You know, one thing. It's a good place to do it. Oh, yes. There's a lot of people, a lot of people into different things. Um, and it is a good place to do it. Yeah. It's.

[01:04:50] There's a lot of, there's a lot of people doing incredible things there in their own artistic, right? So a lot of great connections in New York. Yeah. Yeah. There is. I'm just like saying yes to any opportunities that come my way. That's awesome. Also just makes me happy, man. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You gotta, you can't, you can't like, you gotta do what makes you happy. Well, there's no point. If you have to do what makes you happy, of course. Do you know what? Absolutely. Yes.

[01:05:21] Down to. Yeah. This might be elite because I don't, I don't think that you're there, but because it sounds like you, and I, I agree. You, you gotta ground, you gotta be where you are. You gotta build your clientele and feel kind of in a rhythm. But yeah. Um, do you see yourself taking on an apprentice? You know, I, I would, I could never own a shop myself. I admire, we talked about this. We touched on. That's not a, that's not a prerequisite for that, but I hear you.

[01:05:51] But like, and totally. Totally. I, but I think it's so much of a responsibility and I have to have clear, I'm definitely, I've never considered it. I say now for sure, not only because I apprentice still myself. And I just think it's like, you know what? It's like the kid debate. I can romanticize about how beautiful it would be to have a kid, but when it comes down to it, am I ready? Because I have to give a hundred percent.

[01:06:21] So right now, no, I couldn't, I'm an apprentice myself and I just am too selfish. And, and that apprentice deserves all the attention and all the, all the respect and all the teaching, because if they're as serious about tattooing as we are, they deserve that. And I am not off of that right now, you know? And, and I think like, I think, yeah.

[01:06:49] And I, and I'm, and I'm happy I can say that, you know, because, because it is a lot of responsibility. I think it's the right attitude. Yeah. Because what I found is, is that they usually find you. It's like having kids. Like people are always like, I'm going to wait for the right time. But what they realize is that there's never a right time. Right time. Dude. You just, you just do it eventually. And it happens and you rise to the occasion. That was, that was the case with me and my, I've, I've had, I would say one apprentice.

[01:07:19] I had a couple of people who entertained it. One I had to let go of mostly because of me, honestly, I will say, I don't think we were a good match, but I, I, I couldn't do it. I wasn't in a good place. Yes. Okay. It was not fair to him, but my, my apprentice, we had worked together for a long time. And it's funny that your mom gave you the same advice that I kind of gave her.

[01:07:48] She, she, her biggest thing was wanting stuff that you just need time under the needle for. We do. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like for that, we're so impatient. Yes. We want it now and we don't understand. But I, looking back at it, I giggle because I was like, dude, it's just muscle memory. Like you can't get it overnight.

[01:08:17] It's already here. My next book. Okay. Listeners. I've got something to share with you that I'm already in love with. I don't know about you, but I'm a total book nerd. I have so many books, a lot. I haven't read. I admit there's just something about having bookshelves full of possibilities that calms my soul. So when I attended the Bogota city tattoo fest this past August for the first time, I was delighted to run into my friend, Ina vigilato. We've actually had her on our show. So go check that out straight away.

[01:08:47] It was like God use Ina to guide me over to black dagger books. There. I met Travis Lawrence and Josh Rowan, the creators of this enterprise and got hooked as soon as I saw their product. It's these beautiful little books, just full of art, amazing art from amazing tattoo artists from here. I'm just going to read what their site says. Black dagger books is an ongoing collection of artists defining modern tattooing published monthly one artist per book, one book per month.

[01:09:15] A subscription is $25 a month. You get inside of these beautiful books, these, these custom stickers. Each one is filled with the most gorgeous artwork and it always concentrates on these awesome tattoo artists. And I try to follow each one as soon as I, as soon as I opened the book, I'm just like, Oh my God. So it's really worth it. Uh, do yourself a favor, go over to black dagger books.com or if you're on IG black dagger

[01:09:44] books, it's all one word and check out their products. Uh, like I said, the subscription is awesome and I'm really happy. Uh, this quells everything about, you know, the book nerd in you, the art collector. It also cures any guilt that you might have about having books just laying around because this gives back to the artist community. It's, it's a win-win. And just so everyone knows I'm not being paid to shout these guys out. I just genuinely love their product. And also I really love them.

[01:10:13] You know, the creators, Travis and Josh were amazing. They were so kind to me. They gave me so much of their time at the tattoo festival. So if you ever have the chance to meet them, talk to them, they're great guys. I just can't say enough things. So do yourselves a really big favor. Go check it out. So thanks so much listeners. Let's get back to our podcast. It's something silly, but it's like saying like explaining how an orange tastes.

[01:10:40] You have to taste it and then you can use it's like zesty and a little sweet, but you can't explain it. Yeah. I mean, you can try, but you have to do it to know. Yes. And I get it. Oh man. Yes. So like constantly kind of tamping down and it, and it sucks too, because you, you know what that person wants, you know what they're after, just like your mom kind of knows.

[01:11:09] And, and, and you know that it's just a matter of time. And I was so grateful that I had somebody that was super eager. You wouldn't be here if I thought you were crap. Yeah. Yeah. That's straight up true. Yeah. So just own it. And, and that's a lot of it. The imposter syndrome, the, it really is because you have to self-manage so much more because, you know, you're everything you're, you're your own regulator.

[01:11:38] You, you get to dictate the projects. You, you really have to find the balance between how hungry you are. Like literally. Yes. Like, how do I, how do I determine whether or not I take on an infinity knot or not? And I'm like, well, how hungry are you? Yeah. Can you deny it and still eat? Yeah. And I was like, then you don't have to do infinity knots. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's true. So.

[01:12:05] That's another, I was going to say the best, the one thing I did pick up in my apprenticeship, which was great was like, um, tattooing is so much deeper than being like a great, like, you know, I, one, one thing my mentor did say my first, the first shot was like, your art is always going to evolve. They're not great flash sheets. They're not good. That's fine. I love the toughness, but yeah, but it's about dedication.

[01:12:34] It's about, it's the fact that I bought in a hundred flash sheets, you know, whether it was done with a crayon, whether it was in, it was completely incorrect. I tried to paint to the best I could. But you tried. The thing was I brought in a hundred flash sheets. Yes. And mentors, that's what they want to see. It's not necessarily that you have to, you know, you know how people are like, dude, I can never be a tattooist. Cause I can't even draw a stick figure. I'm like, you'd be surprised. I can't like, it's not about that.

[01:13:03] It's so, it's many things because you will learn how to draw and paint, but it's, it's really comes down to like, it's a, it's a. The reps. Yeah. It's the reps. The reps. Yeah. The reps. It's a, it's the apprentices are not easy. They teach you a lot. It's, it's showing up. It's doing the tubes. It's mock. I was the first to show up. I was the last to leave. Praise God. That's awesome.

[01:13:32] I still am. Like I never changed my routine in terms of like, I start early, but you know, Do you use traditional machines? Like, um, coils. I do. I started on coils, built coil machines. And then now I use Dan Cuban. Dan Cuban's awesome. It's a great in between his, his, his, his machines are incredible. I love to get on the pens one day because I think it saves a lot when you're traveling in terms of equipment and supply. Oh my God.

[01:14:02] Yes. It's just convenient. I haven't gotten, I, I'm, I don't know if you're like this. But your stuff is very line oriented. And Dan's stuff is a great lining tool. He's great. His machines are very good for that. Oh, good. So heavy hitting. And I also just, I, you know, I find that it takes, I'm a, I'm a fixed air sign, you know, changes really kind of, I might come across as like, Ooh, like I, you know, lived

[01:14:29] in different countries, but really it's quite hard for me. So I'm like hesitant to try the pen because I'm just so stuck in this, you know, when we have a, we, we, how many times have we broken springs, tried different rubber bands. And then when we, when you're like, yo, it's working. I'm like, I'm not changing a thing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, and also, you know, I will say, um, I, a lot of people that I know that use,

[01:14:56] they either use something like a Dan Koeman or, uh, a coil for their lining and then they'll switch to a pen or something like that for their shading and packing of color, because they're, they are different. And you do have that direct hit from a needle part bar configuration. It is awesome. And the, and those kinds of machines that can kind of feather out now, I will say from what I've experienced, having experienced all of them, the pen's.

[01:15:26] Pen's have come a long way. Um, you can address the throws, you can address the hits, you can do all of that. And it does come down to, um, you know, note, noticing your needles and pay attention. Um, Mark, yes. Les Garbo from a needle jig is really good. He does a good, um, you know, his company makes needles. Okay. He does a really great, um, seminar on teaching you about needles and how to utilize them.

[01:15:55] And it's very, you know, uh, idiot proof, which I love. Send it to me. That's awesome. Yeah. It's really great. I will. Yeah. And I don't know, after I took that, I was like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. And it, it just talks about like, you know, medium taper, a long taper, you know, bump pins versus this and that. Yeah. Cause when I started, you know, that didn't, there wasn't so much of a selection. No, we got medium tape. Yes.

[01:16:24] Got like hella tight. And then we got hell. Yes. Hella tight. I was like, Ooh, you got some weird shit. Like we're going to stagger them. Yeah. You're going to have like needles that don't even hit the skin and the needles that will, you know, like there's this weird and Mark's like, he's like, I don't like all that weird shit. Like, cool. That's fine. But like, let's not get too weird. Let's not get too. He's very, he's old school that way. He's just like, there's a liner and a mag and done. Yeah.

[01:16:51] He's like, I make solid needles that if you know what you're doing with them, they're going to give you all the tricks you need. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great, it's a great. I actually have the paperwork for his stuff and I think there is on his website. I'll have to find it for you, but I think he offers a free download of, of his seminar that he teaches, but he's a great guy to know. And he's not far from you. He's located in Massachusetts.

[01:17:21] Very cool. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. When I started on coils, my machine builder who I dearly love and respect, I bought all my coils was, was, is this Toby Reese, South, South manufacturing. And he's from Florida. And I had the privilege of meeting him at the Tampa cigar city convention. And I was so delighted.

[01:17:47] I like, you know, that guy would spend hours on the phone with me when I was a kid, a student stressing out because it was in a machine that would, that would do my kind of tattoos with the needle weight that I use. And he would spend a couple of hours and like, I'm going to do this for you. I'm going to give you this. And we, I, you know, I love them. I have them.

[01:18:13] I will always keep them because they're like, so there's such a memory to like, when you're a student, right. I could resell them. And I just found that I was so lucky in my journey. You know what I mean? Like I could have, I was just really lucky. Whilst my actual physical world apprenticeship wasn't like a good, like a wasn't, you know,

[01:18:42] wasn't greatest. I found mentors, like I said, and gurus and people along the way that were super helpful. I think God blessed me in that sense. Just, yeah, through, you know, the social media, Instagram platform. I think you really came to it integrally too, because the sincere love of tattooing when I, when I came to tattooing, I didn't even have a tattoo. Yeah.

[01:19:08] So the fact that you did what I think a lot of people do, which is they fall in love with getting tattooed first and then they're like, what? I want to know more about this. But you know, you know, there isn't a right or wrong way. Do you know what I mean? No, but. Like, even if you, your way is also so wonderful. I. Yes, but I love the people you hang out with. Like there, there is something great, like Pagoda, for example. Amazing. Amazing. And that tattoo convention.

[01:19:37] Oh my God. It's, it's such an incredible tattoo convention. And you know, what's so great about it is because it's kind of out nowhere and we, it's such a tight community because there isn't bars and shopping centers. So you get to really know each other. It's like. Yeah. I'm into the little family ones. Like I love the Goa one. I just really love it. It's it. Yeah. It just reminds you of how special our community really is. Yeah.

[01:20:05] Well, I really didn't know until because I, my mentorships were, um, I I'm an art kid. So I come from being a college dropout, but my, my background was all like going to art school and, and, and learning, learning those things. So when I came to it, you know, you are confronting people from like the punk world who are anti

[01:20:31] establishment and who, you know, when, when you come from that kind of. You know, college background, they're like, you're tourists. You're like, what the hell? Like get out of our space. Like that was a lot of what I encountered or, you know, when I, my first apprenticeship, um, I'm sorry you encountered that. Yeah. You know, it, it is what it is. It's good. And I, I, you know, I'm arrogant.

[01:21:01] I have a lot of confidence that is unearned. Yeah. I think that's what happens when you do this, but see in those realms, because everybody's paying to be there and you're all, you're all learning. You're not, you're not in a profession. So there isn't that competitive heat. That's kind of there when you're, when you're learning in an apprenticeship, it's different. Yeah.

[01:21:26] Um, and there isn't a hierarchy except for the teacher, you know, you have reverence for your, your professor, but you know, you're all students. And so it's a lot more sharing. There's a lot more, um, critique that is, um, you know, you're taught how to critique, you're taught how to like, you know, lead with a positive land, the negative at the end, you know, like there's, it's more controlled and it's more of a cultivation of, of artists on a very mutual level. Yeah.

[01:21:56] So when I came into the tattoo world and I also came from the service world too. So I hit the Renaissance of tattooing around like 2010 ish, which is when like all these machines were like popping off, you know, it was, it was really starting to be innovative and the art kids were coming in. So we shook everything up and all the old heads were like, screw these assholes. And I get it because we have fucked it up.

[01:22:25] I will say like, there's a reason why you can get tattoo machines on Amazon now. We did that. Yeah. We did that. And I, I know I did that. So I harbor a lot of, um, understanding and, um, kind of repentance for that. Yeah. Um, and I can see now why the people who were gatekeeping all that stuff, why they did it. Yeah. And so I find a lot of that in the Bogota crowd.

[01:22:55] I find a lot of that in the punk crowd. It's like, those are the people that like, they understood what the establishment was about. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And they did not like what it produced. Well, I, you know, that, you know, interesting topical conversation. We were taught to, I had this wonderful, wonderful chat with Todd Noble. He's in, he's yeah. He's the best dude. Yeah. He's so humble. I, I just was like, why are you talking to me?

[01:23:24] He was like, he always comes into, cause he's so great. And he was like saying, I loved new artists and what's coming out because, you know, I had two, all the, all the people who I admire and respect say you, you know, when you're attached to this, it's for life. You, you, you invested in it. You have to stay relevant. You have to work on your skills all the time. You don't just do it. Think you're hot. And that's it.

[01:23:53] That's not how it rolls. Well, it doesn't last long. It doesn't last long. He loves, and he was like, I love talking to all, cause this, you know, all of this new work, new stuff is so inspiring. It's fantastic. And we talked about this and to a level there should be some gatekeeping. Yes. Because it's so sacred. It took these legends years of making trials and errors and mistakes to finally master something and get that secret.

[01:24:21] To be able to, to, to give that to someone that doesn't respect the craft or is like, just, just arrogant is, it's so, it's so hurtful. You know, it's like, there has to be some level of gatekeeping, but where I think it can get dangerous as if, if, if gatekeeping is linked to things that are quite discriminatory and that's just like a no, no. Do you know what I mean? Like, like when. My, my worry is when government gets involved.

[01:24:51] And so that's the one thing that I really, totally. Yeah. Really respected about the old heads is because they gatekeep so much that it did kind of keep it a subcultural kind of thing. So the government influence of it, even though they didn't like it, they didn't have reverence and a lot of people got a lot of shit for being tattooed and being tattoo artists. Yeah. They kind of left everybody alone because they didn't make enough noise. Yes.

[01:25:19] Now though, like that, we are making money. Yeah. We are making noise. We are manufacturing. It's hitting multiple crowds. And so now they're seeing, Oh, this is a, I want to get a piece of this. It's a cash. You know what I mean? Yes. And so that's where I didn't see that right away. And I should have, I had no excuse not to see that. My whole thing was just like, you know, I, I just wanted to, to be something.

[01:25:49] Where, you know, it was just a shame that it wasn't more available to artists, you know, like that's the thing is that, but, but to that point, you know, walls don't keep people out. They just keep out the dispassioned. So, you know, gatekeeping is good because the people who really want to get through will get. And the ones who don't fall off. Yes. And, and, and I usually find intention integrity plays a big role.

[01:26:19] If you're coming into tattooing, cause you want to be rock and roll and famous, that's ridiculous. You are going to be pushed out because that is not what tattooing is about. And it's not going to last. And it's sure as hell, it isn't going to make you happy. Well, yeah, it won't make you happy that I, that I will say, I mean, you could probably get pretty far. Yeah. America is a very superficial place. You can probably get very far, but you'll never be able to satiate that gaping hole in your soul. That's what I was going to say. Yeah.

[01:26:49] Cause all the money and the riches and the fame is not going to whatever people are doing. Some people want that. I'm not judging them. Again, I come from a place of do what makes you happy. Like I, I love tattooing because it's such a, I want to make a voice about Indian culture. It was outcasted. Colored outcasted. It's taboo.

[01:27:12] And yet it is so rich and you can call it Japanese, Maori tattooing in a book and you, and we have so much tattooing, but because it was outcasted. It's old. It's so old. It's like, I just want to raise awareness and I want to, I want to make people happy. I want to connect people to, to what makes me happy, which is my, I want to make people smile. Yes. Well, and also it has place, you know, like you're here. Yeah.

[01:27:42] There's a reason, you know, you already are taking up space. Like there's a reason for it. So be here and have, have purpose and have reason and, and hold that ground. Cause it has authority of its own. I, yeah, I totally agree with that. Yes. I wanted to share with you. So I miss my friend, Sunil. We had to, I was another, um, relationship that had to part ways for reasons that were very sad, but I'm praying about it. Yeah.

[01:28:09] Um, cause I love him very much, but, um, he's from India and we were sitting there one day and we were getting high. Yeah. So, you know, your mind goes to all these places and we're watching documentaries. And one of them was about like the ancient temples of India. And he was like, honey, look at my people. Look at that.

[01:28:32] He's like, they would take granite from one area that were miles away and they would, they would carve these logs that they would like make concentric circle logs or get the most straight logs so that they could put the granite on it. And they'd have elephants. They would train elephants to push the granite to this miles away. And then they would sit there granite, like one of the hardest things in the world and

[01:28:58] tick, tick, tick a lifetime could be spent making one of those characters that are on the whole face of those temples. Yes. And he's like, look how incredible that is. And I was like, is it incredible or were they just really bored? Yeah. Did they just have a lot of time in there? They didn't have a lot of time, man. Yeah. I mean.

[01:29:23] And like, they didn't have all the rest of the distraction and elephants are really cool on their own. And I'm pretty sure it didn't take much for them to be like, you want me to help you? Sure. You seem cool. You know? That's, that's hilarious. It's yeah. Yeah. I mean. And I was like, I'm pretty sure that if we were that bored, we'd come up with some really crazy shit. Yeah. Um, our mind is, there is no limits, you know, even as artists. It is incredible. I don't want to take away from it.

[01:29:54] No way. No. You know? I mean, look at how much we've advanced just technologically, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I loved speaking to old heads because they tattooed at a time where there was no, no internet. No. Yeah. I mean, that was 20 years ago, 25. That's crazy. Nothing. Now I have a pizza delete delivered with the tip of my finger. If I, you know, it's crazy, man. You know? Yeah.

[01:30:23] Like, yeah, we, and that's why you do with the, with younger generations, um, tell them like, look, dude, it just takes time. You got to slow down. You've got it. And within tattooing, that's a huge thing. I always, you know, the biggest thing is like slow as fast. Yeah. And they're like, what? And it's like, do it right. The first time you won't have to do it a second time. Slow as fast. Slow down. Totally. Everything now makes sense.

[01:30:52] But when you're in it, it's so stressful. It's horrible. It's like, I, you know, even the little thing where my boss would be like, okay, now we're going to put a pencil in the coil machine. You're going to draw circles. And I'm like, I don't understand. Why can't I just tattoo now? But everything, there's reason for everything. I had to. How hard was that? Wait. Oh my God. It was terrible. It was like a 0.1. You know, with a brick at the end of it.

[01:31:22] And I'm trying to make perfect circles and everything makes sense. And drawing a perfect circle is horrible anyway. Like that's like one of the worst things you can tattoo. That in a straight line. I agree with you. All right. Listeners. That wraps up this second, second piece of this three part diary entry. Definitely come back next week.

[01:31:50] And please keep in mind, mark your calendars for June 22nd in LA at the Devout Gallery. Swazi is creating a showcase. She's painting up a storm. And was so gracious to not only like spend so much time meeting with me and just doing a thing, but she interrupted her flow state and painting, which I know she's got to be super busy.

[01:32:19] Um, but to, to meet with the show and, uh, introduce herself to all of us. And, uh, it's, it's quite a gift. Her work is stunning. Her tattoo work is stunning. I, I am very honored, but yeah. Thank you, Swazi. And thank you so much for giving me so much time to talk. I really, I really appreciate it. Um, I get frustrated with myself because I, I know I talk too much.

[01:32:47] I get very excited, but, uh, you were so gracious and I really, really, really am grateful. Uh, listeners as always, I'm, I, you're just such blessings. Um, Pagoda tattoo convention, you're a blessing. Black dagger books, Josh and Travis blessings. We're just, we're just blessed. And, uh, I hope you all have enjoyed this time.

[01:33:14] Please circle back next week for more of swastik. In the meantime, make it a powerful week. Thanks for listening. You can find the apprenticeship diaries on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Our IG is the underscore apprenticeship underscore diaries. If you would like to offer constructive criticism or an interview, drop us an email at the apprenticeship diaries at gmail.com.

[01:33:42] We look forward to hearing from our listeners.