Ep. 203 "What Can be Given Can be Taken Away" (Diary Entry 1:2 with Gabe Ripley)

[00:00:00] Oh, this is going to be recorded.

[00:00:04] Oh, wait a minute.

[00:00:06] I didn't know that is there a release form?

[00:00:08] No.

[00:00:09] It's.

[00:00:10] You're awesome.

[00:00:11] How is this going to be used?

[00:00:14] That's a podcast.

[00:00:16] Oh, perfect.

[00:00:17] Okay.

[00:00:18] Well, that case you have all rights to use this for impredutuity for any medium that you

[00:00:21] could possibly think of.

[00:00:23] You're awesome. I love that.

[00:00:26] But when you hit, that's another feature.

[00:00:28] Zoom, most people don't know that, but this can go out before I introduce you.

[00:00:33] The agreeing to be record is the release form.

[00:00:38] So you had agreed.

[00:00:40] We've already agreed anyways, right?

[00:00:41] You've agreed.

[00:00:42] But I didn't read it.

[00:00:43] I know.

[00:00:49] Oh, happy Wednesday, Derry listeners. It was supposed to be Tuesday,

[00:00:50] but I had a tech issue, a hardware issue.

[00:00:56] One of my cords actually broke down

[00:00:59] and it's what attaches my microphone to my computer.

[00:01:04] And whilst you would think that I should have

[00:01:07] extra of those, I didn't.

[00:01:10] Now I do.

[00:01:11] They were quickly shipped to me.

[00:01:15] It's the good, it's the bad, it's the Amazon.

[00:01:19] Got it to me.

[00:01:21] But I'm so happy that I can finally

[00:01:24] pour out this podcast for you, this diary entry.

[00:01:27] It's a two-part entry with Gabe Ripley of Tattooed Now.

[00:01:32] We're calling the first part, what can be given, can be taken away.

[00:01:37] Enjoy listeners.

[00:01:39] Welcome to the apprenticeship diaries where raw meats were fine.

[00:01:46] That's be real, we're still working on the finance.

[00:01:48] What it took, what it takes and the stories that are made.

[00:01:52] Join us as we learn from professionals about how their stories begin.

[00:02:03] I mean, did you read it or?

[00:02:06] Um, no, it was just simply the whole like, uh, you can't record people beyond their consent

[00:02:13] kind of thing.

[00:02:14] So my guess is that zoom has the right to use this conversation for however zoom wants

[00:02:18] to for in perpetuity for all purposes.

[00:02:21] Probably, but you know, we're pretty wacky people. I

[00:02:26] don't know if we'd raise any red flags for that. I have to go

[00:02:30] out of my way to not raise red flags.

[00:02:34] Well, what's that? I know, right? Well, I'm very grateful to

[00:02:38] have you on my show, the Apprenticeship Diaries and just

[00:02:42] so everybody knows who I'm talking to. Because this will

[00:02:44] mostly be audio. I'm trying to. Um, because this will mostly be audio.

[00:02:46] I, I'm trying to get to the video medium and you have such a great setup that it's kind

[00:02:51] of a crime.

[00:02:52] Oh, if we're going to go on, if we're not doing video, I might hop, eventually I'll hop

[00:02:56] onto my headphones, take a wha, you know what?

[00:02:58] Oh, you already, you already pressed record though.

[00:02:59] Okay.

[00:03:00] Nevermind.

[00:03:01] Well, I might use the video and I'd like to share the video with you as well.

[00:03:06] But I'm here with Gabe Ripley of Tattoo Now. And you, yeah, hey, and we've known each other

[00:03:16] for quite a time, man. Like, I think it was before even paradise that I met you at your shop off the map. And I think it was like 2010.

[00:03:29] Yeah, it was really cool. I'm flies. It's out of control. It's really crazy. It's really,

[00:03:35] really crazy. But I I I've adored your family ever since then. I met your daughter and your wife,

[00:03:47] ever since then. I met your daughter and your wife, Cecilia came and Kim was really like, oh no, don't, you know, don't interfere. And I was giving her paper to draw on because I

[00:03:53] love doing that. I don't know if you know, but I really love playing with kids like that.

[00:03:59] So as soon as she was into it, I was like, oh, that's so fun. So it was great.

[00:04:05] And that first year of a show, they did seminars for the kids.

[00:04:09] You know, so there was actual workshops for the kids.

[00:04:13] So while the parents were off doing the workshops, the kids

[00:04:15] could be doing a workshop and kind of being part of the same experience.

[00:04:19] You know, it was, that was out of control.

[00:04:21] I want to do it.

[00:04:22] Can we bring that back?

[00:04:23] We are.

[00:04:24] Oh, absolutely.

[00:04:24] You know, this year, when I saw a bunch of the clients, Nick was out of control. I wanna do it. Can we bring that back? We are. Oh, absolutely.

[00:04:25] You know, this year when I saw a bunch of the clients,

[00:04:27] Nick Baxter's clients, you know, same clients

[00:04:30] from fucking 2008, right?

[00:04:32] Yeah.

[00:04:33] But now he's back with his four kids.

[00:04:35] Oh.

[00:04:36] And I'm like, oh, it's amazing.

[00:04:37] And yeah, immediately I talked to Cecilia

[00:04:39] and I was like, you know, next year, you know,

[00:04:41] babysitting and kids' class was again.

[00:04:43] And she was way down.

[00:04:45] I'm down with doing something like that too. I would love to do that.

[00:04:50] Wow, that's so cool. And how cool would it be if I got to like,

[00:04:53] butt up with Cecilia and like talk about that because that's so cool.

[00:04:57] She could probably help me a lot because it's amazing.

[00:05:01] Like the next generation, I mean, it's just amazing, like how fast everything's

[00:05:05] going, how fast everybody's brains are going. It's like, you know, technology is helping,

[00:05:11] communication happen faster than like our brains have kind of evolved or our culture has evolved.

[00:05:17] It's not it's crazy. It really is. Well, and I wanted to touch with you because I knew you then, but I don't really know about you prior, really.

[00:05:28] I know that you had created an amazing online portfolio space of tattoo now.

[00:05:35] And that kind of set off, I think, tattooing in a way that nobody had really had seen or even recognized before. I really think,

[00:05:45] because that was what brought me

[00:05:47] and that's what brought my mentors into that space.

[00:05:50] They were like, this is the place to go

[00:05:52] and talk with artists

[00:05:54] that are pushing the boundaries of this medium.

[00:05:57] And I was like, oh, this is cool.

[00:06:00] And for me as an art kid, I was like,

[00:06:02] well, this is great,

[00:06:04] because it's a critique space. It's, I was like, well, this is great. Because, you know, it's a

[00:06:05] critique space. It's like a meeting space, portfolio, online space. So it was really, really,

[00:06:11] it was great, to say the least. I agree. It was fun. You know, it's, I mean, obviously,

[00:06:16] the impact everyone else has to figure out, you know, in my, you know, I just have to keep working

[00:06:21] is all right. And the kind words, except I'm happy and thankful for them, but being in it, it's hard to tell.

[00:06:27] It's not even fair to try to figure out

[00:06:30] the effect of things, right?

[00:06:31] But that said, it was one of the first two or three

[00:06:35] online resources for tattooing.

[00:06:37] And we definitely have a certain flavor.

[00:06:41] There was tattoo artists.org and tattooedables

[00:06:43] and tattoos.com and a bunch of others.

[00:06:44] But in part because of my wife's influence There was tattoo artists.org and tattooedables and tattoos.com and a bunch of others.

[00:06:45] But in part because of my wife's influence and education, education has always been a

[00:06:51] big part of what sets tattoo now or the work that I do or the people I work with apart.

[00:06:57] And the spot between technology and tattooing and education and tattooing,

[00:07:05] you know, and technology, like all of that is,

[00:07:07] you know, it's still pretty damn new, right?

[00:07:09] But, you know, in the mid nineties,

[00:07:11] again, it was definitely cutting new ground.

[00:07:14] I used to joke sometimes that we were like reality websites

[00:07:18] before there was reality TV, you know, reality tattoo TV.

[00:07:20] So you would check in with tattoo now every day

[00:07:22] to see what the new stuff was going on.

[00:07:24] And the forum was rocking, right?

[00:07:25] I mean, we had a, that was my first experiment in, in radical free speech or unfiltered free

[00:07:32] speech.

[00:07:33] And I wrote that for a while until I realized that there are absolutely limits to free speech

[00:07:39] and there should be.

[00:07:40] And, you know, while there's an important space for anonymity,

[00:07:45] as far as like whistle blowing is concerned,

[00:07:48] I found out pretty, well, not pretty quickly,

[00:07:50] but probably eight or eight years into that forum

[00:07:52] that if you're not gonna attach your name to your harsh words,

[00:07:58] then there's a disconnect.

[00:07:59] So there would be violent threats,

[00:08:01] anonymous threats and it's just like,

[00:08:02] well, that's not, you know, that's not cool. Yeah, that is a, that is a hard limit that people don't really understand

[00:08:10] that that's not okay to do regardless. And especially like you said, if you're not going to be balls

[00:08:16] in enough to get crazy. You know, that said, I had people show up at the shop and stuff too.

[00:08:21] So it's like, oh, man. so again, mostly, but I got staring

[00:08:25] it back to like, so I guess what that is, is like, we were not trained and how to manage

[00:08:29] millions of personalities.

[00:08:31] Well, I think it's valuable for that. And that's why I really am excited to have you

[00:08:36] because, you know, my podcast is a baby venture. And I, I'm very dedicated to doing it slow and growing it slow because I think the more that I do that,

[00:08:50] the more that I can take these hits as they come than going really fast because you have these really,

[00:08:58] and I think in tech world, it a lot like that because you open up this Pandora's box that you think it's going to

[00:09:05] be like so amazing.

[00:09:08] And then it catches like wildfire in ways that the human condition, like you said, you

[00:09:13] just are like, well, and we know it.

[00:09:15] We know that more people and more problems.

[00:09:17] We know that we are capable of such crazy crap, but you just don't think that it's going

[00:09:24] to happen. And you just don't think it's going to happen to you.

[00:09:28] You know, obviously, you know, what, what the internet can give

[00:09:32] us the internet can take us away, you know, and you know, the,

[00:09:36] and obviously you could do it in.

[00:09:38] And I didn't want to go here so quick.

[00:09:39] I let's go back in time when things were nice.

[00:09:42] Yeah, you know, because there was a shift in the tools, right?

[00:09:46] And so we're skipping forward, I don't know,

[00:09:48] 10 years ago in the beginning, in the 90s,

[00:09:54] computers and the tools, human beings

[00:09:56] used the computers as tools to do awesome things.

[00:10:00] And when the social media shift started happening,

[00:10:03] it's like all of a sudden we became the fucking tool.

[00:10:05] You know, the tool started using us.

[00:10:09] Yes.

[00:10:10] And so there is a distinct shift.

[00:10:12] And if you're, so it's really important to be in tune with when you're using technologies,

[00:10:17] are you using technologies as a tool?

[00:10:20] Or are you being delivered to the altar of an engine, you know, to be sacrificed and all of a sudden you're doom-scrolling forever?

[00:10:27] But you know, so back in the, you know, but it was awesome in the, I mean, it's still awesome, but,

[00:10:33] you know, in the mid 90s, you know, when I started doing tattoo now, it was one of the first websites,

[00:10:39] like websites didn't really exist. I was, you know, programming computers. I was doing mostly

[00:10:43] touchscreen kiosks, you know, Honda, Ep Epcot Center and all that. And then I would

[00:10:48] come home and I'd work with my tattooer friends and my musician

[00:10:50] friends.

[00:10:52] So that's where you worked prior was Honda and Epcot and things

[00:10:55] like that.

[00:10:55] It was like, that was like all freelancing stuff. So like I

[00:11:00] were I did contracts for Honda and Epcot Center. So that's

[00:11:03] you.

[00:11:04] I was able I took some I tried to think of myself a little bit

[00:11:07] as a Robin Hoody type computer geek.

[00:11:09] Like I'll take from the evil corporations

[00:11:11] and I'll deliver to my musician friends.

[00:11:13] You know, like-

[00:11:14] I like it.

[00:11:15] You know, why are they, you know,

[00:11:16] they're just as talented as these executives

[00:11:19] that I'm working around.

[00:11:21] You know, some of the musicians were more so

[00:11:22] or the tattooers more so,

[00:11:32] but they were in the, you know, in But they were in the musicians, it sucks. The economy and economics of music is insanity. So for me, and why are these, again, the corporate players who aren't really all,

[00:11:37] they're not that smart, or they're not that much smarter.

[00:11:42] Doing so much better and in charge of these budgets,

[00:11:45] you know, and the musicians are, you know, slogging it out. So anyway, so that was, you know, for

[00:11:49] a while there, I would work for do freelance gigs and then, you know, work for artists. And then

[00:11:54] eventually I, you know, just dove in and started working with the artists, had less and less

[00:11:59] tolerance for, you know, just selling, you know, cars, you know, you answered one of my first questions,

[00:12:07] which was what was it about us that you wanted to partner with?

[00:12:13] You know, it's funny when I saw that question come over,

[00:12:16] my first friend.

[00:12:19] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, wicked.

[00:12:20] I mean, I'm not on weird.

[00:12:23] I grew up in an awesome, you know, beachside town,

[00:12:27] but I grew up, you know, white trash, you know,

[00:12:29] on section A, you know, was it in the trailer park,

[00:12:31] but you know, hung out with everybody from the trailer park.

[00:12:33] And, you know, the computer, it was weird.

[00:12:36] Like my mom's boyfriend had a TRS, TRS 80, no,

[00:12:42] TI 99 4A was a Texas Instruments, TI 99 4A.

[00:12:44] Oh, wow. We would plug it into

[00:12:46] the TV and I have no idea how he got it. He was weird. Like not in a good way really.

[00:12:52] Yeah. But it gets just like in the chaos of like that, that insanity, I would be able

[00:12:57] to get into the computer and I could type in you know, 10 print hello world and then the

[00:13:02] computer would do that, right? And then I could, you know, program out all the other games and, you know,

[00:13:07] the games would come in magazines. So I'd flip through the magazines and I'd type out

[00:13:10] and basically program the games before I could play them. Wow. And it was probably like 10

[00:13:15] ish, 11ish when I started doing that. And then what really got me to your question about how

[00:13:21] what did I start working with artists when I went to Catholic school in fifth grade and I

[00:13:27] would not recommend it to anybody. And if you send your kid

[00:13:28] to Catholic school, fuck you. Sorry. Didn't mean to like it

[00:13:32] was arts. You know, they taught me that I was going to hell.

[00:13:35] Right. So for me, you know, it gave me an inherent distrust of

[00:13:39] adults and large groups of people in my peers. But it was

[00:13:43] definitely rough to go through. The main point was, I was definitely an outcast

[00:13:46] and I was not a Catholic in a Catholic school.

[00:13:49] I showed up in fifth grade.

[00:13:52] So everyone else had been there forever.

[00:13:53] They knew each other.

[00:13:54] So I was like a weirdo that came, showed up late.

[00:13:57] And there's this one kid, John Paul,

[00:14:00] who had system fibrosis.

[00:14:02] And so he was also-

[00:14:03] But baby.

[00:14:02] who had cystic fibrosis. And so he was also-

[00:14:03] But baby.

[00:14:07] He was also not normal, right?

[00:14:09] And-

[00:14:10] Yeah, he was suffering quite a bit.

[00:14:11] It was suffering. It was rough.

[00:14:13] And my mom, I think my mom bought drugs

[00:14:14] from his father or something, but yeah.

[00:14:17] So it was like, he was an artist, right?

[00:14:19] So this kid, John, he was sketching,

[00:14:20] he was drawing all the time.

[00:14:21] And it was really amazing that knowing he had limited

[00:14:23] amount of time on the earth, he was still going for it right he was still drawing so he was

[00:14:29] probably like he was the first artist that I started working with and I remember having him draw out

[00:14:34] you know sketches so that I could pro you know I'd have to translate that into the computer as

[00:14:39] bitmaps you know it was you know really blocky, but the point was, you know, that was the first

[00:14:45] time that I worked with an artist to use their art to put into the computer stuff.

[00:14:51] That's so cool.

[00:14:52] Yeah, it was rough.

[00:14:53] Again, it was a weird, you know, I had a weird upbringing, right?

[00:14:57] So when he died, my mom did a good tell me about the funeral, right?

[00:15:00] So it was like, all of a sudden on Monday, I go to school and the kids were like, what

[00:15:04] the fuck were you? Why weren't you a Juppos funeral?

[00:15:06] I'm like, I was this weekend.

[00:15:07] Like, what do you mean that was this weekend?

[00:15:09] Oh no.

[00:15:11] You know, everything's just, you know, again, it was whatever.

[00:15:15] It was weird.

[00:15:16] Well, I want to highlight some few things.

[00:15:19] So I now kind of understand why I see you so well.

[00:15:24] First of all, my brother is a software engineer.

[00:15:29] So I grew up with a little you.

[00:15:32] I wouldn't recommend that either as an older sister.

[00:15:39] But I love my brother now.

[00:15:40] He's super dope.

[00:15:42] He's a really good guy, really good dad. And I do see that we share a

[00:15:49] very similar brain in a lot of ways. We just we just end, you

[00:15:54] know, use the engineer brain in different facets. And one of my

[00:16:00] mom's favorite movies growing up was Alex Life of the Child about a kid

[00:16:06] that had cystic fibrosis.

[00:16:08] And she would watch it.

[00:16:10] And so I don't think very many people understand what that disease is and how fatal it is.

[00:16:16] And the fact that you grew up directly with somebody that you cared about a lot and he

[00:16:23] was a major influence, that's pretty incredible.

[00:16:28] And that's the thing about art and all of it,

[00:16:33] creation is that it comes from,

[00:16:35] I think all of it comes from a lot of pain.

[00:16:38] So like you have to, if you're going to survive it,

[00:16:42] you have to transform it.

[00:16:44] So yeah.

[00:16:45] One of the things, obviously losing friends early,

[00:16:48] and again, like I said, it got, again,

[00:16:52] it was a chaotic upbringing.

[00:16:54] So it just got weird quick.

[00:16:56] And but you know, losing a friend in high school, right?

[00:16:59] It's, you know, he died when I was sophomore year

[00:17:02] in high school.

[00:17:02] I didn't really talk to him much that last year either.

[00:17:04] And we had gone to sophomore year in high school. I didn't really talk to him much that last year either and

[00:17:07] we had gone to different schools after

[00:17:10] Catholic school and

[00:17:14] You know, it's definitely like I think now. I mean that was

[00:17:19] 30 some odd almost 40 years ago, right? And it's like all of that life that I've been able to experience

[00:17:27] You know, he hasn't you know, so so and obviously in then, there's been plenty of other, unfortunately, people have come and gone.

[00:17:28] I mean, ultimately, I think that for me, a lot of the motivation is for my friends that

[00:17:35] aren't here anymore.

[00:17:36] It's like we have to live life for them.

[00:17:38] That's the only thing we've got.

[00:17:42] Well, and it's definitely investing in the gratitude of it too.

[00:17:46] I, um, I've, I've worked with a lot of people who have lost, uh, God forbid, uh, children.

[00:17:52] And I've always told them, you know, I, I don't know if this is healing or if it feels okay.

[00:17:59] I don't have kids.

[00:18:00] So I don't know, but I do feel like because I'm very spiritual.

[00:18:07] have kids, so I don't know. But I do feel like, because I'm very spiritual, I do feel like that they're kind of beings that take on a sacred mission to kind of come in and invoke in us

[00:18:18] something that drives us beyond what we ever would have imagined before we met them, that they kind of came in knowing

[00:18:26] what they'd have to bear. And I think that they're kind of like little

[00:18:30] e-gater. Yeah, like the ones that pass early that have to suffer like that.

[00:18:35] That's nice. I have a much more naturalistic view of it.

[00:18:40] I know, but I think they're meant to plant little seeds in our heart. I mean, I guess I want to know that.

[00:18:46] Sorry, I didn't mean to cut off.

[00:18:48] This is about you, man.

[00:18:51] I mean, like, certainly, like the magic in the wonder of life, you know, is hopefully,

[00:18:56] I wouldn't say it's designed to make us acknowledge the miracle that we are actually alive.

[00:19:03] But it does, you know, certainly my wife teaches infants, right?

[00:19:05] So for, she has a new set of nonverbal infants

[00:19:09] in her classroom every year.

[00:19:11] So yeah, she gets to experience the magic of a human being

[00:19:17] as their brains are, you know, the last trimester,

[00:19:22] the three months after birth is kind of like an extra trimester of development.

[00:19:27] You know, kids are basically developing after they got out of the womb. Our brains are too big.

[00:19:32] Yeah, they are. They used to kill their mothers a lot. Like our heads were just too massive.

[00:19:38] Sure. No, it's, you know, again, science and biology, it's phenomenal.

[00:19:45] I love it.

[00:19:45] And the fact that we get to understand or at least get to attempt to understand so much of it.

[00:19:51] Well, again, that's for me.

[00:19:52] It's like, when the small amount of time that we have here, let's try to figure out as much as we can.

[00:19:55] Yeah.

[00:19:57] You know, and then the arts are obviously a method of communication.

[00:20:00] Right.

[00:20:01] And so, so for me, of all the different types of people that are, you know, that are communicating, that are working around in the world, to be able to help amplify, and ultimately that's what I do is I'm an amplifier, to help amplify the creatives.

[00:20:16] You know, it's a pretty sweet spot, right, especially as a non creative like I don't do any art, I don't draw, I don't play music, you know, I don't do creative writing, you know, I probably could. We'd be nothing without you. But my skill sets different,

[00:20:30] right? I mean, as you know, when shit's hitting the fan and worlds going crazy, I'm like, why don't I

[00:20:34] just tattoo fucking hipster shit on people for 300 bucks a pop, right? Like, it's really not, I

[00:20:40] mean, it's not super trivial or easy, but I, you know, I probably do have the Guinness Book of World Records for having taken the most amount of tattoo seminars while never tattooing.

[00:20:50] It's like, I probably have logged fucking 50 or 60 different, you know, three hour long.

[00:20:54] You should contact them.

[00:20:57] I mean, for a dude, like, that's a gap that I don't think the Guinness is really really even understood. You definitely

[00:21:08] should. And not just, you know, any old tattoo seminars, because that is even getting, I feel

[00:21:16] like more and more watered down as time goes on. Everybody's trying to sell their their tattoo on line and at mass. So you know, you're you

[00:21:26] do the seminars that that I truly believe are the most

[00:21:33] impactful though I don't want to take away from anybody else's

[00:21:36] hustle. Some of the most impactful. Yes, because they're in

[00:21:39] person and there's there's touch and I feel like I don't know know, for me, the things that, the reason why I

[00:21:47] attach to people is because I love people.

[00:21:49] And I like, I like figuring out how to connect with people better.

[00:21:53] And like you said, it's a communication tool.

[00:21:57] So if I'm going to expose myself to a learning environment, I like the classroom.

[00:22:03] I like being tangibly there,

[00:22:05] I like touching things with with other people. I like seeing it right then and there and

[00:22:10] emotionally like feeling the room. There's a different energy when you get to experience that.

[00:22:15] Oh, 100%. I mean, I think that they did a recent study about the Zoom and about the different

[00:22:20] touches that the, well, when you communicate, you know, there's obviously

[00:22:25] there's sites, there's your facial expressions is your hand is how you hold yourself, you

[00:22:30] know, how you smell or how many distractions there are in the room, you know, when you're

[00:22:36] zoomed, so say there's like eight, I don't know, these are paraphrasing say there was

[00:22:40] like somewhere between seven and nine different factors that went into the level of communication.

[00:22:46] Through the Zoom, there was like two or three, right? It's like we can see you in this spot,

[00:22:51] you're flat, you know, hear you, you know, depending, you know, Zoom's doing a great job. I was just

[00:22:56] saying, you know, Zoom does a great job of filtering. But here's the thing, right? Zoom filters out

[00:23:00] all of the audio of the environment, but we will often use the environment as audio

[00:23:05] cues about what the hell's going on or where you're at. But the main point being is when you're

[00:23:09] in the room with like 20 people and there's real energy going in, there's all nine of those

[00:23:15] pathways of information that are flowing through and sensory things going through.

[00:23:20] There is just more, it is richer. Now that said, you know, obviously I make my living or try to make

[00:23:26] my living, you know, using the computers to connect people, right? Which gives us the ability to

[00:23:31] connect with people all around the world at a time when we, you know, we couldn't have this

[00:23:34] conversation as it wasn't for the computers. I mean, we could, but we couldn't have it at our convenience.

[00:23:39] Right. And so for me, a lot of what I do, and it isn't back in the day with touching us,

[00:23:45] starting from the beginning,

[00:23:45] it's using the digital to attract people online,

[00:23:50] to communicate and to kind of create

[00:23:51] this online digital introductions and relationships.

[00:23:56] But then really bringing everybody into person, right?

[00:23:59] So it was like kind of beginning with the tattoo.

[00:24:01] So Darkseid was the first website that I did.

[00:24:06] And this is in the mid 90s. And again, this was like websites came out

[00:24:09] and I was programming video games and touchscreen kiosks.

[00:24:12] And I was like, with pictures and words,

[00:24:13] like it's kind of neat that everybody could publish,

[00:24:15] but like making video games and shit.

[00:24:17] I don't, you know, make it full of straight videos

[00:24:20] and you can't do that on the web.

[00:24:22] But I wanted to get better tattoos, right?

[00:24:24] So I started

[00:24:25] training out for tattoos for the for web work and realized really quickly it's like people

[00:24:33] see the pictures online and then read the words, right? And so that's where like Baxter, like

[00:24:38] right from the very beginning, he had this like manifesto was on his pictures, he's like,

[00:24:41] this is about animal rights and this is about, you know, equality or whatever it was. And, but people could just see the pictures and be like, oh,

[00:24:48] that's a fucking sick ass tattoo. And then they can read the words and be like, I identify with that.

[00:24:53] Yeah. And all of a sudden they're there in person, right? They've driven two or three hours to get

[00:24:58] a full sleeve about animal rights or whatever. And we're about mixed interpretation of animal

[00:25:04] rights, even better, right? And,

[00:25:06] but then you meet in person, right? And so then all of a sudden, like there's people that would

[00:25:09] come to the shop and they'd be like, oh, I saw that tattoo online or I saw it. And, and really,

[00:25:13] it's that, that, that dance or that, that, that pass back and forth between the virtual world

[00:25:18] and then the real world. And then everybody sees you in, especially like with the, with the

[00:25:21] gatherings or, or then sort of like, you know, you, or a party at a shop, you see each other in real life, then when you're connecting over the computer again,

[00:25:29] it's a whole new world, a whole new level of it. And so maybe we only have our three points of

[00:25:34] senses, but now we have all that history and we've got, you know, again, a sense of shared history

[00:25:41] or some experiences and whatnot. Absolutely. Like you said, you try to stick to it as a tool and you don't let it, you know,

[00:25:50] it's the same with stuff. It's the same with things that you own.

[00:25:56] You got to be careful because eventually it can end up owning you.

[00:26:00] Yeah. Sure. Now the big difference is right.

[00:26:03] Or one of the differences is like, yeah, for sure, you know, the getting sucked into it is not a unique, not unique to social media. But what is

[00:26:11] unique to it is that there's computer scientists, like your hammer is not designed to get you

[00:26:16] addicted to it. Right. Yeah, sure. Your TV kind of is, but your TV is also not interactive, right?

[00:26:22] So like all of a sudden, I were in this interactive world where again, you know, I'm a computer geek, right?

[00:26:28] I listen to these motherfuckers like that. Their goal is to keep us sucked into using it.

[00:26:33] Right. And so that part is a little bit different, right? So it's like, well,

[00:26:39] and I think what happens is the scientists are tapping into our natural tendencies

[00:26:44] to do that.

[00:26:45] And they're exploiting it to a tremendous effect.

[00:26:48] Well, and that's why I encourage anybody, you know, like you said,

[00:26:55] the beginning of my story was a lot of emotional pain, physical pain, things like that that I had to figure out and survive. And there

[00:27:06] was a lot of therapy, lots of self-help books around my shelf, along with a lot of psychology.

[00:27:12] And I love it, honestly. It's hard for me to not respect it on some level because I do have that very engineered brain of just being like, oh,

[00:27:28] we're very programmable. We have these natural things that you can actually,

[00:27:35] and what's sad is that people, when you're feeling something, you are uniquely feeling it.

[00:27:42] So it's hard for you to think, wow,

[00:27:45] I'm feeling something that if people,

[00:27:48] that can be very utilized in a nefarious way,

[00:27:52] that can target me, but it's so,

[00:27:58] you think like, oh, how could anybody do that?

[00:28:01] You know?

[00:28:01] It's a fuck the heart.

[00:28:02] And this is, I mean, these are all just choices that we're making, right? Like, it's, it's just as easy to program,

[00:28:09] maybe not just as easy, but it's not that much more difficult. And it couldn't be just as

[00:28:14] easy to program the algorithms to help supply us with content that's healthy, that helps

[00:28:21] us feel better about ourselves, not feel worse about ourselves. That helps us compete in a healthy way,

[00:28:26] not compete in a toxic way.

[00:28:28] Like it doesn't make as much money, perhaps,

[00:28:32] but I don't know.

[00:28:32] They haven't really even tested it out yet, right?

[00:28:34] Like they're just taking the lazy route,

[00:28:35] which is like attention means money.

[00:28:37] And again, the computer doesn't give a shit what?

[00:28:40] I mean, I'm taking that route.

[00:28:43] I was like, I mean, I'm grateful for all of them.

[00:28:46] I think they're very dedicated fans, but I only have like, you know, a handful of people

[00:28:51] that really because I'm very determined to grow this slow and integral.

[00:28:55] And I love that grassroots, you know, by ear, it makes me have to meet people like you said,

[00:29:03] like go beyond the computer, meet them in person,

[00:29:07] have an exchange, draw them into a space

[00:29:10] where we both can exchange on a very integral level.

[00:29:14] And I wanna bring it back, you know?

[00:29:17] Like I've had a lot of people be like,

[00:29:19] why don't you sell ads?

[00:29:20] Why don't you do TikTok?

[00:29:22] Why don't you do these clips?

[00:29:24] And I'm like, because I do long form

[00:29:27] conversational podcasts that are about meeting people.

[00:29:32] If you're attracted to those things,

[00:29:34] you're not my audience.

[00:29:38] Yeah, I can't agree more.

[00:29:41] You know, again, I've gone through audiences.

[00:29:43] Sometimes the audience is a million,

[00:29:44] sometimes it's in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, sometimes it's just thousands. Like, again, as you know, again, I've gone through audiences, you know, sometimes the audience is a million, sometimes it's in tens of

[00:29:45] thousands or hundreds of thousands, sometimes it's just

[00:29:47] thousands like, again, as you know, there's like a core group

[00:29:49] of a couple thousand. And that's all you really need, you know,

[00:29:54] and obviously we've watched a half a dozen other tattoo

[00:29:57] podcasts or YouTube shows and blow up and explode. And then,

[00:30:00] you know, I think, you know, there is definitely, I mean, it happens in the tattoo

[00:30:06] world.

[00:30:07] Also, it's just another effect of how it happens in the tattoo world.

[00:30:12] Younger tattoo or 22 years old, all of a sudden, Wicket talented makes $1,500 a day, not mature

[00:30:18] enough to be able to speak to 100,000 followers.

[00:30:21] Correct.

[00:30:22] Right.

[00:30:23] And, you know, I've done the same thing.

[00:30:26] I mean, I have also been in a position of responsibility

[00:30:29] that was greater than the skill level

[00:30:31] that I had to communicate it.

[00:30:33] So I'm not like throwing stones at Glass Housing

[00:30:36] or anything.

[00:30:37] I acknowledge it because I've been through it.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:38] And I guess we've watched Rock and Roll Stars.

[00:30:43] I mean, all sorts of fame will blow people up.

[00:30:45] Justin Bieber.

[00:30:46] However it is.

[00:30:47] Who's that?

[00:30:48] Is that a golfer?

[00:30:49] Right.

[00:30:50] But it's tough.

[00:30:51] Like I said, it's almost no way to teach people ahead of time.

[00:31:02] One of the themes that came up a couple times at the gathering last was

[00:31:07] you know, a bunch of the tattooers were talking about how they used to be assholes,

[00:31:10] they used to be full of themselves, or again, it's like that that three-year to six-year mark often

[00:31:14] will a tattooer just all of a sudden they are enabled for the first time in their life possibly, right?

[00:31:21] And it's really easy to let that get to your head and to think it's about you, right? And it's really easy to let that get to your head and to be, to think it's about you, right?

[00:31:26] Right. And I'm the one that's doing these tattoos. I'm making $1,500 a day. You know, people are

[00:31:30] flocking to me. You know, I can go anywhere in the world and actually be busy. But you know,

[00:31:36] ultimately it's not right. And again, you know, it's, it's, you know, again, the tattoo gathering is

[00:31:39] not about me. Often, that wasn't about me like tattoo now. I mean, it kind of is just because of five, well, there's other computer gigs, right? Again, we're really just come to it. And, you know, it's,

[00:31:50] I guess ultimately that's the one of the things I was hoping that would come out a little bit more,

[00:31:54] and that might have a need to be just a workshop or discussion feel like, I'm not, you know,

[00:31:59] how to avoid being the asshole that you're probably becoming, you know, or something like that. And,

[00:32:03] How to avoid being the asshole that you're probably becoming, you know, or something like that.

[00:32:04] And again, I don't know.

[00:32:06] Maybe we can't.

[00:32:07] Maybe we all have to go through the learning process of thinking that we're the best thing

[00:32:11] and then getting our ass kicked and then, you know, coming back and being like, okay,

[00:32:15] you know, humble enough to keep asking or whatever.

[00:32:17] Yeah, I do think there's, there's truth to the humility that needs to happen.

[00:32:23] I think that that's a classic thing. I know

[00:32:27] that it's not a fan thing, but it's like the story of the Tower of Babel. Humanity tried

[00:32:33] to try to build this huge thing to be above God and then it was leveled and we were parceled out

[00:32:39] again. I think that that's kind of... yeah, yeah. I love the part that I love about that story.

[00:32:46] I mean, and I'm definitely, like I said,

[00:32:48] I read most of the Bible and I've got very strong opinions

[00:32:51] about a lot of it.

[00:32:52] For the Tower of Babel, like what I really take away

[00:32:55] from that is, and two things.

[00:32:57] One is if we could just talk to each other,

[00:33:01] we fucking get the shit down, right?

[00:33:03] Like there's a language barrier in

[00:33:07] between humanity. And then the other part is like, man, if there was a guy, why don't

[00:33:12] you want us to all get along and talk in the same language? Like, you know, come on up.

[00:33:16] But for me, maybe not in this life, though, you know what I'm saying? Like, this is a

[00:33:22] life we got. Well, I know. And well, yeah, but you like video

[00:33:27] games. So I like to see it as that, you know, I don't, I don't particularly, I used to like video

[00:33:32] games. I haven't played video games in, uh, well, what if we're just, we're just stuck in a simulation

[00:33:38] with a certain set of attributes that, uh, that would sound fantastic and awesome. But, uh, you know,

[00:33:47] attributes that would sound fantastic and awesome, but you know, it's a little bit too complicated. You know, it feels to be natural or to be, you know, to be in the natural world. I mean, for me,

[00:33:54] this is the experience, right? So one of the frustrations that I have with anybody who will

[00:34:05] with anybody who will try to influence me

[00:34:09] by using an afterlife or something that happens after death as almost as anything.

[00:34:12] It's like, you know, it's this for me

[00:34:16] as either heaven or hell depending on the experience

[00:34:18] that we have.

[00:34:19] And so I created that.

[00:34:21] So sort of co-op that, somebody's sense of that

[00:34:24] for an afterlife

[00:34:25] or to try to displace it.

[00:34:28] You know, again, I really hope on my way out,

[00:34:32] you know, my last thought will be,

[00:34:33] I hope I'm wrong about this.

[00:34:34] I can't wait to be wrong about this.

[00:34:36] You know, if I'm wrong about one thing,

[00:34:39] let it be this.

[00:34:40] Well, you know, I agree.

[00:34:43] That's a, you know, that would be a frustration. I think that

[00:34:49] all I mean is that I think that for us to keep cultivating hope, there needs to be meaning

[00:34:59] and there needs to be that. Now, whether we make it up or not, which we probably do,

[00:35:01] and there needs to be that. Now, whether we make it up or not,

[00:35:03] which we probably do,

[00:35:05] I do think that it keeps us from being fatalistic.

[00:35:08] You know, I read,

[00:35:10] again, as we're talking about,

[00:35:12] I have a 20 year old daughter, right?

[00:35:13] So, and she's a going into philosophy.

[00:35:16] And so, as of the videos I was listening to recently,

[00:35:21] it was one on optimistic nihilism, right? right so nillism being we are all just

[00:35:28] Give me this I was like

[00:35:31] So it's like you know, well you least are optimistic

[00:35:34] You know if you but the thing is if you acknowledge that I mean and I guess I get a science

[00:35:39] Scientist in me is like I just don't know how we keep you know acknowledge the fact that

[00:35:44] The universe is gonna run out of fuel, you know, someday, right? And this is all for

[00:35:51] not. But to use that again, not to use that to be oppressive and to be like whatever,

[00:35:57] to use it as like, that means that this bullshit that's in front of me right now is meaningless,

[00:36:03] right? Like like the drama that's going on

[00:36:05] on the internet about tattoo gate or whatever the fuck it like, like all of that literally

[00:36:09] is meaningless too. Right. And so, so, well, if that brings you peace, if that brings you

[00:36:15] peace. The thing of it is, is that seems to bring you peace, that seems to allow you to

[00:36:22] keep going.

[00:36:23] Yeah, just because I'm not sure I am an optimist, Nail.

[00:36:25] I don't know.

[00:36:26] I'm just talking about the concept of if somebody doesn't have meaning to life, does that mean?

[00:36:32] What does that mean?

[00:36:35] And again, we could get into all of the hidden, like, is a false,

[00:36:41] meaning to life that makes your life better any better than, you know, but if it's a false belief that makes your life better.

[00:36:49] How does that reconcile right I'm not I'm not I guess those those are all philosophical questions of my pay grade though. to that seeking at least. I think any artist who denies that is probably lying to themselves,

[00:37:08] you know, we self-soothe by our craft and everything is about,

[00:37:14] you know, perpetuating a sense of meaning and hope for us.

[00:37:18] Because otherwise, why would we do it?

[00:37:20] Why would you ever do that?

[00:37:21] Who had cystifibrosis?

[00:37:23] Why did he draw?

[00:37:25] Yeah, so that was a long time.

[00:37:27] I don't know. You know,

[00:37:29] I guess my only my only play

[00:37:31] that is there's a wide variety of

[00:37:33] artists, right? They do it for a

[00:37:34] wide variety of reasons. Right.

[00:37:35] So like there's I'm always a

[00:37:37] little bit remiss to say that,

[00:37:39] you know, artists are like this

[00:37:40] artists like that. Artists, you

[00:37:41] know, have a deeper sense of

[00:37:42] this. Because you know, I know

[00:37:44] a lot of artists and not

[00:37:45] all of them are deep. Some artists get into it specifically for the superficiality of it.

[00:37:54] Which is okay I guess. I mean it is okay.

[00:37:59] Well, yeah and no because I've met a lot of people, I've talked to a lot of people,

[00:38:07] and you know, it's as deep as the person will let you dig, honestly.

[00:38:13] A lot of people have a lot of depth that they never show and that they won't show, and it's

[00:38:20] because they are really trying to keep themselves for being seen in that way.

[00:38:28] And it's very intentional. I met a lot of people like that. So they put on this very,

[00:38:36] very fortified facade that if you do meet with them,, I've metled with a lot of people and when you inflict

[00:38:46] pain on people, it tends to crack them a little bit more than they're comfortable with.

[00:38:53] You can feel and you can get certain things and I try to use my powers for good and not evil.

[00:39:02] But I've found that most people are a lot deeper than what they're really comfortable

[00:39:09] in sharing, even with podcasting, like, you know, contacting people and then just being like,

[00:39:14] Hey, you know, do you want to be on a podcast? They want to, but then then they're like, Oh, my God,

[00:39:21] I'm going to be seen and like, Oh, I don't know what to do. And they get really like, and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm going to be seen and like, Oh, I don't know what to do. And they get really like, and I'm like, dude, don't

[00:39:26] worry about it. First of all, it's just going to be you and me

[00:39:29] it's recorded. If if you want to cut certain things out, I try to

[00:39:33] keep it raw and honest. But if there's something that comes out

[00:39:36] that you don't like, we'll cut it out. It's not a big deal. And

[00:39:39] then, and I'm like, I have, I don't have a huge audience.

[00:39:44] It's gonna save you.

[00:39:45] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:39:46] I love that part.

[00:39:47] It's like...

[00:39:48] It's a nice breaker.

[00:39:51] It's a...

[00:39:52] I mean, I've helped or not helped, but I've been part of a significant amount of people

[00:39:57] like hopping on the cameras and doing this stuff.

[00:39:59] Yeah.

[00:40:00] Like some of them before they go on the real TV and then, you know, I'm always really

[00:40:03] nervous once I come back after, you know, they've been on the ink masters like three times or whatever and then they're coming out of our dinky little, you know, do yourself podcast shows or whatever it's like.

[00:40:13] But you know, none of us are me and none of us are like we didn't get into it to become actors, you know, no, like I suppose if we were but you know, the point is like we are just regular people known

[00:40:26] should be comfortable, you know, in front of the camera, like,

[00:40:29] truly themselves. It's like, it's not a natural thing. No, it's not. It's not. But I, but I like

[00:40:36] too. And that's why, you know, I try to make the show as like very, you know, as much as can be

[00:40:44] make the show as like very, you know, as much as can be

[00:40:50] favorable to those things, like let people understand that like,

[00:40:56] this is the beginning because, you know, of course, apprenticeship and all that stuff is like, you got to start somewhere and you have to get uncomfortable first and you have to,

[00:41:01] you know, go into this unknown that, you know, and like you, I've always loved you and your

[00:41:08] family because as you said, your wife likes to deal with people who are very still developing.

[00:41:14] And there's very fresh, like, you know, three months out of the womb, your daughter loves to

[00:41:19] teach education has always been the forefront. And I, you know, I do view you as very optimistic.

[00:41:28] I think that, yeah, I mean, you're about developing systems that I think are too, like you said,

[00:41:34] amplify. And that has to come from a place of just sincere love and joy and like,

[00:41:48] your love and joy and like, you know, wanting to see people be as big and awesome as they can be.

[00:41:49] So,

[00:41:50] Is it?

[00:41:51] I don't know.

[00:41:52] I don't know.

[00:41:53] You tell me.

[00:41:54] But I see.

[00:41:55] I think, you know, I mean, like I'm happy that's the effect and that is the effect I go for.

[00:41:59] I'm like, like my motivation though isn't necessary to like help you become the best person.

[00:42:04] You could be no offense

[00:42:05] I mean, I hope you can be like but I'm not like I don't stay out of your family

[00:42:08] I know well, yeah, I gotta be but but even that like I'm not I mean

[00:42:12] I mean my wife probably wishes I thought about that a little bit more but for me. It's like it's it's just the effect

[00:42:20] You know, you know, it's it's what you love. It's what you get about

[00:42:26] You know, or you know, it's it's what you love. It's what you get about. It's kind of you have keep on your hand right now. Oh

[00:42:30] I'm not a more an ethologist, but I do like birds and I am a geek

[00:42:37] You know, but it's weird because it's like it's so I'm looking for the effect or but not because

[00:42:41] Mostly because I can I guess I don't like and I'm here for a very short amount of time and the skill set that I have

[00:42:44] You know allows me to take a peek at

[00:42:50] the ingredients, if you will, you know, an artist and where they are and what they're about and where they can go, where they could be. And I can definitely see like, oh, like, you know,

[00:42:54] it's almost impossible for me not to be like, oh, you know what you can do. Like, it's just like

[00:42:58] unsolicited critique and feedback about what I think you could possibly do, right?

[00:43:04] critique and feedback about what I think you could possibly do, right?

[00:43:09] Well, I think that's earnest. And I can admit that. But again, but that part, it's weird. Like it's, but it's not like I'm like looking at, you know, like,

[00:43:12] I really care about you, Amy. And I could connect all these dots so that you could be the best

[00:43:15] that you can be. It's really just like, I mean, and again, I do think that, but that's not what

[00:43:20] my motivation is. My, you know, again, my motivation really is, I don't even know.

[00:43:25] Like I said, mostly it's just,

[00:43:26] I know I could see the things

[00:43:27] and I'd like to put them together

[00:43:28] and then some people dig it and some people don't.

[00:43:30] And sometimes it's very difficult and complex

[00:43:33] to put something together that I'm looking at.

[00:43:35] And sometimes it's a little bit.

[00:43:36] As an artist, I get it.

[00:43:38] It's the same thing.

[00:43:39] It's the same exact thing.

[00:43:41] And it is a very, I mean, I don't know

[00:43:44] if I'm on some spectrum,

[00:43:46] but it is kind of like an emotional disconnect

[00:43:50] from a place that, you know, not a lot of people have

[00:43:52] where you're kind of seeing people as more numbers

[00:43:58] and, you know, points on a screen

[00:44:01] than you are actually them.

[00:44:03] And you gotta really vacillate between the two

[00:44:06] when you work that way.

[00:44:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:44:10] There was a business solopreneurk podcast

[00:44:13] that I was listening to where the fellow had worked

[00:44:16] with 300 people or whatever, and then he was down.

[00:44:18] He was like, I'm not a solopreneur, I have one employee.

[00:44:20] And the guy's like, look, you had fucking 300 of them.

[00:44:23] Now you have one year as an entrepreneur.

[00:44:28] But you know, and he was talking about how like he loves people. So like when he was like, he would just say, he would say yes to people.

[00:44:31] Right.

[00:44:32] So when he was in charge, it was not a very good manager.

[00:44:33] Cause he just have to say yes.

[00:44:34] And he's like, and I'd be the business person.

[00:44:37] You need to think of them as numbers and whatnot.

[00:44:39] And it's weird.

[00:44:40] Cause it's like, I'm not sure I just, I'm not sure I.

[00:44:46] Not sure I'm there. I mean, obviously I'm very computer-y.

[00:44:47] And my emotional intelligence has learned very late in life.

[00:44:53] So there's probably plenty of people that are like,

[00:44:55] fuck you, you've treated me like a number.

[00:44:57] But I don't know, again, I really dig,

[00:45:02] let's see, like, so Rember is really clear as a shop owner,

[00:45:06] how he meets everybody with where they're at, right?

[00:45:10] Which is crazy because he's got like 20, 25 people in this space.

[00:45:15] And I did try to, and maybe it maybe came a little bit later,

[00:45:18] but again, it's not like, and this isn't okay,

[00:45:20] this is my, the reason why I don't just say,

[00:45:23] I treat people as members, like I'm not fitting anybody into a plan, right?

[00:45:26] So I'm not like, I'm gonna hear it fitting you

[00:45:28] into a plan or not fitting, you know,

[00:45:30] guy into a plan or Nick or anybody or Ivan or whatever.

[00:45:32] I'm not like, like there's no plan.

[00:45:35] So it's not like when I'm looking at somebody,

[00:45:36] I'm like, oh, I know how I could, you know, fit you

[00:45:39] and make those numbers into this numbers

[00:45:41] and make it all work.

[00:45:44] It really is just more like, you know,

[00:45:45] you know, the other day I was, well, Ivana, you know, moved back into Los Angeles and she's

[00:45:50] like, did she? Which is, yeah, yeah. Oh, right on. She has the best eyes. She's great. She's

[00:45:55] a church. Her eyes are so fucking gorgeous. Sorry. No, no, no worries. And so, so I like I woke up in the middle of the night thinking she could market to weddings

[00:46:09] and she could like she's been doing like translating the kids art into tattoos.

[00:46:14] So she could like throw in parties where the kids, they're drawing parties for the kids

[00:46:18] and book appointments for the parents.

[00:46:20] Yeah.

[00:46:21] And I'm like, I can't play, I was, I was, I'm dreaming. I literally woke up at one o'clock in the morning and I'm like, I can't believe I was I was I'm dreaming I literally woke up at one o'clock in the morning

[00:46:27] And I'm like I have to fucking text so I don't forget these ideas, right and

[00:46:33] I don't know and again like so for me, it's like that she's not I'm just like like she's not a number like I'm not like

[00:46:38] There's a real creative energy there that I'm trying to figure out

[00:46:43] You know just how to I mean how to connect, just how to, I mean, how to connect

[00:46:45] with numbers, how to connect with clients that pay money. But like, you feel like to

[00:46:50] me, and I identify with this a lot, kind of like a creative cheerleader.

[00:46:56] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And again, I'd like to, well, cheerleaders, almost the

[00:47:02] right word, you know, coach is definitely not the right word.

[00:47:05] Well, coach suggests a little bit more of a plan.

[00:47:08] Yeah, it's very athletic.

[00:47:10] I hate sports.

[00:47:11] So yeah.

[00:47:11] OK, cool.

[00:47:14] I mean, I don't really my niece is becoming a cheerleader.

[00:47:17] And it's been a lot for me to like kind of grapple with that.

[00:47:20] But I've never been physically fit enough to even go in that space.

[00:47:24] So I think that's part of my

[00:47:26] aversion to it. I'm super proud of her and super excited for her, but like the cheerleader vibe is

[00:47:32] like really that I've had before. I mean she's eight, so it's awesome. And I think that she's

[00:47:38] incredible that way and I can't wait to see what she does, that she's a really good soul, but yeah, there's like a really.

[00:47:46] Sure, sure.

[00:47:47] But you know, that's a,

[00:47:50] obviously people take a peek at our choices.

[00:47:52] And yeah, yeah, same thing.

[00:47:54] I'm a mess.

[00:47:54] But it's a.

[00:47:57] I have no right.

[00:47:58] You know, I mean, culture, I mean, I guess to tattoos,

[00:48:00] it's amazing how, you know, clearly when we were getting into tattoos, it was way more,

[00:48:06] it was counter culture. Yes. And now it's like, Google culture. Yes. The shift from that is,

[00:48:15] I mean, I love it, you know, I mean, you know, for me, tattooing empowers people to become who

[00:48:20] they want to be or often does or has the ability to.

[00:48:25] So for me, the ability for, you know, if half of America

[00:48:30] could actually use tattooing to actualize who they really want to become

[00:48:34] and become that person.

[00:48:36] You know, again, I almost, I had a story at one point where, you know,

[00:48:40] tattooing as a cultural Trojan horse, right?

[00:48:44] So it's like it's, it's this anti-establishment art,

[00:48:50] you know, and really it's a self empowering art, right?

[00:48:52] I mean, you know, you put either a symbol on somebody

[00:48:55] of something that they wanna be,

[00:48:57] then they're looking at it every day

[00:48:58] and they want it, they're gonna become it.

[00:49:02] Or an anchor to a memory of the past or a person of the past. You know,

[00:49:07] tattooing, I mean, it helps people become better people. Yes. And so for me, it's like,

[00:49:15] oh man, it's amazing. It's like the everyone thinks that TV is ruining tattooing, right?

[00:49:20] TV is ruining tattooing. And I'm not saying it's not doing crazy things and some

[00:49:25] of it's not damaging. But, all of a sudden, the mainstream culture of America and the greater

[00:49:32] world around speaking America, you know, is now finding it more acceptable to get tattooed. So

[00:49:39] then all of a sudden they're engaging in this art that can help them become better people who

[00:49:43] they want to be.

[00:49:45] In my science fiction story in my head,

[00:49:47] I'm like, what I'm tattooing is the art

[00:49:49] that helps bring about world peace,

[00:49:51] or whatever, I don't know, maybe not world peace.

[00:49:53] But, you know, it helps bring about a change

[00:49:56] in a sea change in people's mentalities

[00:50:00] about their lives, right?

[00:50:03] About how the decisions that they make now will affect them now

[00:50:08] and on their deathbed.

[00:50:10] They're still gonna be looking at, you know, their ex-Hosvins name on second, I need to fill my team. Yeah, to go for it.

[00:50:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:50:30] Well, you probably can't, I know.

[00:50:33] Hahaha.

[00:50:36] Gave you're awesome. The downsides to having headphones

[00:50:38] as I can't fill up my team here.

[00:50:40] Ah!

[00:50:42] Well, I was just gonna say, I love that too.

[00:50:47] I was going to say that I don't think that I'm, how do I want to phrase this?

[00:50:58] That is a hope.

[00:50:59] At the end of the closing panel at Paradise, FOM was up there, Nick was up there and the question

[00:51:06] arose like, what do you think the future of tattooing is? And I really love the answer

[00:51:12] you just gave because if I were to highlight something that I hope tattooing can be and

[00:51:20] it's um, you know, unlike any other art where, and I saw it right away because I wanted to do

[00:51:28] my art for a living but I saw that in order for me to do that and actually make money

[00:51:35] um I would have to either parcel myself out to a corporation and be heavily controlled and heavily kitsch and have almost all of my art watered down

[00:51:49] to a point of where it wasn't even art anymore. It was just like we were talking about clickbait

[00:51:55] advertising that's meant to sell people shit. So what I saw in tattooing was I went to school

[00:52:03] for illustration and a lot of kids that went

[00:52:05] to school for illustration I think have found their hearts in tattooing because

[00:52:09] what we get to do is take that that seed concept from our client and then run

[00:52:15] with that and create a brand for that person specifically and while we do it

[00:52:22] and this is something that I try to very much so do, I try to educate people about art.

[00:52:28] Because when you do that, you open up the artists and someone

[00:52:34] else, you open up their creativity, something that has been

[00:52:37] taken from them through, like you said, like going to certain

[00:52:41] schools, going to certain programs like, Oh, we just got to, we got to live and work and, you know,

[00:52:47] nine to five it. And like, you know, like we have to do this soul crushing

[00:52:51] life that doesn't give us any kind of joy.

[00:52:55] And there's something that gets amplified and turned up.

[00:52:59] Like I said, my ability to crack through people through this borderline

[00:53:04] like torture method, that's what tattooing really is, is able

[00:53:08] to you can either seed in somebody something that's kind of bad

[00:53:12] and kind of traumatic, which some tattoo artists, I think do

[00:53:15] whether they mean to or not.

[00:53:17] Um, or you can turn them up and you can open up something in them that's really incredible.

[00:53:27] And I do think that the people who gather at Paradise are those kind of people who

[00:53:34] need to be that kind of artist.

[00:53:37] And I don't get out to Paradise by accident.

[00:53:40] It's in the middle of fucking nowhere.

[00:53:42] It's nerdy and everyone's like,

[00:53:48] can you actually tattoo anybody in a skier's heart? Like, is anybody going to be there?

[00:53:49] You know, right?

[00:53:51] No, you know, and like, I don't know.

[00:53:55] Tatsui doesn't have to be about that either.

[00:53:57] Right.

[00:53:57] There's definitely a place to walk in and get a little, although, you know,

[00:54:03] you walk in and get a little touristy banger, you know,

[00:54:05] tattoo though. And this, you know, the same forces are at work, right? If the tattooer is an asshole,

[00:54:12] then all of a sudden you're thinking that person's an asshole for the rest, you know, the time

[00:54:16] you're looking at that little banger tattoo. You know, if that tattooer is like, you know, on the,

[00:54:22] you know, again, on a path of helping you enlighten yourself,

[00:54:26] even though it's just a little banger, they might introduce something or a concept or

[00:54:30] say something that again, you're going to remember for the rest.

[00:54:32] Oh, you know, I remember the first time that I thought about it that way, you know, or

[00:54:38] whatever it is.

[00:54:39] And, you know, I guess I guess I just waffled back and forth and like, not all tattooing

[00:54:43] has to be about that life change,

[00:54:45] except for it is always about it,

[00:54:47] whether you acknowledge it or not.

[00:54:49] Well, I think it's just because you recognize

[00:54:53] that you're not trying to be an authority in someone's life.

[00:54:57] You're just trying to give them a few helpful suggestions.

[00:55:01] Take it or leave it, man.

[00:55:03] No, sure.

[00:55:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. leave it man. Sure. Yeah

[00:55:08] Yeah, I was watching a video

[00:55:11] some I guess I was on YouTube and

[00:55:20] There's a woman she's tattooing now I think or she's a premise thing and she's it's all about like the the kitschy kind of you know YouTube stuff and something be you know

[00:55:22] There was a pretty famous tattooer lady who was talking about not tattooing people's hands are next and some of the, you know, there was a pretty famous tattooer lady who was talking

[00:55:25] about not tattooing people's hands or necks. And so like the premise of the YouTube is like,

[00:55:30] I think gatekeeping, you know, they're gatekeeping. And you know, the younger woman was doing a

[00:55:35] great job of explaining, she's like, well, all the older tattooers had to go through shitting

[00:55:39] this and that and they would never tattoo next or hands. And so that's like the old way of doing

[00:55:43] it. But now no one gives a fuck if you have your hands tattooed.

[00:55:46] So it's like, you know, they're just old really.

[00:55:49] And so it was almost like you could, you know,

[00:55:52] excuse their old ways of, you know, being weird,

[00:55:56] because when they had to get their neck tattoo,

[00:55:58] they had gotten a lot of,

[00:56:00] and oh no, I forgot where the point I was going with this.

[00:56:04] But I was listening to that video.

[00:56:05] They were talking about keeping and...

[00:56:08] We were just talking about like, you know,

[00:56:11] I think the...

[00:56:14] How people get to paradise,

[00:56:15] what their interactions with the public is

[00:56:19] and how to open up people.

[00:56:21] And I think you were getting to the point of like,

[00:56:24] you know, our professional responsibility. And the fact that you, like you said, you're just trying to not be an

[00:56:30] authority, you're just trying to give people suggestions about, you know?

[00:56:34] Oh, so right, right, right.

[00:56:36] So then that made me think of when they were talking about not getting your hands tattooed

[00:56:41] or whatever.

[00:56:42] It was probably 15 years, I don't know, whatever, it was 2009, I think.

[00:56:46] And because there was a particular tattooer and she was, you know, somebody, a client

[00:56:51] had come in and wanted a tattoo on their hand or their neck or something.

[00:56:53] And the, the tattooer was giving them a lecture about, you know, jobs and this or that.

[00:56:59] And I'm just like, they're a fucking scientist.

[00:57:02] They came in, they said they're a scientist from a, you're like a 23 year old tattoo

[00:57:07] who barely could keep their own shit together.

[00:57:09] Like I know what happens when you walk out of this door

[00:57:11] and you're a wreck.

[00:57:12] And you're trying to give advice to a 45 year old scientist.

[00:57:16] Yeah.

[00:57:17] Yeah.

[00:57:18] So yeah, like, you know,

[00:57:20] you definitely not, you need to know your true.

[00:57:22] That tattooer still does tattoos on people

[00:57:24] that they're gonna remember for the rest of their life, right?

[00:57:26] Right.

[00:57:27] And so it's, and this is where I was going before.

[00:57:29] It's like, even though we get the responsibility, it's not like anybody's like, oh, here's the responsibility and the handbook on how to fucking use it appropriately.

[00:57:37] Correct.

[00:57:38] And again, even if, you know, if you're 22 years old, who's, even if you read the book, you're not necessarily going to understand it because you're only 22. And it's really tremendous the amount of energy that tattooing, I mean, for me, it's one

[00:57:52] of the most beautiful things. It's like the barrier to entry is so low and the heights that you could

[00:57:59] reach are... I mean, endless. I mean, there's a lot of... There's a natural limit. I wanted to say, yeah, it's limitless.

[00:58:05] There's a natural limit.

[00:58:06] Yeah.

[00:58:07] You can't make more, you know, you can't be, you know, more famous than the most famous

[00:58:10] person in the world, right?

[00:58:11] But if you want to be, you could be, you know, tattooing really is.

[00:58:15] And so that, again, that enabling nature of tattooing that, and it's, it's, we talked about it before, you know, the power that enables the client to become

[00:58:25] who they wanna be in mass allows the tattooers

[00:58:28] to become exactly who they wanna be.

[00:58:30] And, you know, if you wanna be a raging fucking maniac

[00:58:34] asshole, you can, you know, you might not make $2,000 a day,

[00:58:37] you might only make a thousand, you might not be booked

[00:58:39] out a year, you might only be booked out six months.

[00:58:41] But if you're talented, you can be, right?

[00:58:44] So the real trick, you can be, right? The real trick,

[00:58:47] not the trick, but the people that, the hardest thing that I found is like people,

[00:58:53] I mean, and it's just like, you have to figure out who you are and get all that toxic shit out

[00:58:59] of you before you scale yourself or before you get scaled. And, you know, again, it's part of, you know, if you don't get it out before you scale.

[00:59:11] And again, like, I mean, I would, you know, think about this with my tattoo shop.

[00:59:14] I, you know, I probably got in at about 70, 80% right, you know, and when I was at 80%

[00:59:20] right, I'm like, good enough for me.

[00:59:21] I'm a fucking B plus student.

[00:59:22] Let's go for it.

[00:59:23] Yeah. Like when I scaled it, all of a sudden I had, you know, when I was a, you know, when I went up 200, 300, 400% that 10% or 15% that wasn't right.

[00:59:33] That's scale to two. Right. Well, shit, you know, what was, you know, if I had one complaint out of 10 is a fuck one complaint out of 10, we're the best tattoo shop, not the best tattoo shop in the world.

[00:59:42] We're one of the best tattoo shops in the world. One out of 10, we give the fuck. All of a sudden, it's a thousand people

[00:59:46] and there's a hundred complaints.

[00:59:48] Yeah. Oh, shit.

[00:59:50] Wait a minute. Now I've got a hundred people talking

[00:59:51] to each other, you know?

[00:59:53] And that's not amplified really quickly.

[00:59:56] But it was like, but it's only 10%.

[00:59:57] Yeah.

[00:59:58] Yeah.

[00:59:59] But it's the same thing will happen.

[01:00:00] Yeah, sorry.

[01:00:01] Oh, no, no.

[01:00:02] Again, it's your show, but I was just going to intercede in that, like,

[01:00:07] uh, so I, I grew up in a small business family and, uh, one of the things that I did first

[01:00:13] before I cut hair for a living and then ultimately tattooed as I ran the front end of my dad's

[01:00:19] salon.

[01:00:20] And, um, he sent me to seminars to be a good friend and person.

[01:00:25] One of the things, I know, right?

[01:00:27] It's amazing.

[01:00:28] I mean, there's seminars for everything,

[01:00:30] but one of the things that you learn was that

[01:00:35] that part is so integral because when people leave

[01:00:40] and they're dissatisfied, that is like a wildfire

[01:00:43] that will catch to so many more people than you think, because people when they're dissatisfied, that is like a wild flatfire that will catch to so many more people

[01:00:46] than you think because people when they're satisfied, very rarely, you know, go out of their way to

[01:00:53] talk about it, they'll just come back. But the problem is when they're not satisfied, they won't

[01:00:58] come back and they'll tell endless people, at least 10 people, about how dissatisfied. And now that we have the internet where you can go.

[01:01:06] Amazing.

[01:01:07] And just have that be rampant.

[01:01:10] And you can have campaigns of people who, like you said,

[01:01:13] about the anonymous ratings and reviews.

[01:01:19] I almost feel like, like you said,

[01:01:21] about the, if we use these tools to the benefit of human

[01:01:26] society, I think one of the things that I would suggest is like, you don't get to leave

[01:01:31] a one or two star review without writing, or one or two star rating without writing a

[01:01:36] review.

[01:01:37] Yeah.

[01:01:38] You know, for me, you know, what I'm 49 almost 50, right?

[01:01:41] So the other day I'm walking down the bike path and I fucking got a pre-roll from the from the dispensary and I

[01:01:47] Mark it up and I fucking well of a sudden look at the whole fucking thing falls right out

[01:01:53] sidewalk and I like I knew it was my fault because I I knew this hat

[01:01:57] You know, I bought the fucking pre-roll from a dispenser

[01:02:01] Anyone wasn't the best quality thing that I could have done or whatever you were eager

[01:02:04] You know, but I was on my walk.

[01:02:05] I immediately was like,

[01:02:08] I'm gonna get on the fucking Facebook

[01:02:10] and be like, these motherfuckers sold me.

[01:02:12] And then I'm like, wait, wait, wait.

[01:02:16] You're supposed to talk to the person

[01:02:18] you have a problem with first.

[01:02:21] Yeah.

[01:02:22] And it was like, ah, I can't believe I fell.

[01:02:24] Like I'm like, I'm like, I'm like I like, like, I, I, I,

[01:02:25] you know, not got my ass kicked because people didn't follow those rules. Right. And it was

[01:02:29] like, how, so that's me. That's my, like, I want to go straight to the internet. I want

[01:02:33] to go straight and bitch about it to all my friends and family so that they could know

[01:02:37] that that fucking the dispensary sold a bad fucking payroll. It doesn't know that is exactly

[01:02:42] the wrong thing to do. That's not like you're supposed to go to the store and be like,

[01:02:46] can you please replace my faulty product?

[01:02:49] I mean, that's so simple, right?

[01:02:50] Like, but now how did we lose that?

[01:02:52] Or how did I lose that?

[01:02:53] I mean, we lost, you know, there's, there's a spot that.

[01:02:57] Okay.

[01:02:58] That wraps part one.

[01:03:00] I know it was just getting good.

[01:03:01] But as you can tell, uh, you, you know, whatever you gain, just understand that the, I guess, the higher you go, the farther you can fall.

[01:03:13] And Gabe is really, you know, just, he's such a good person to reference for all of this because he's been through most of it and just, I honestly

[01:03:28] think that, I don't know, just such a good guy at the end of all of that, even still,

[01:03:35] a lot of stuff happened to him. And I'm kind of mad for him in a lot of ways because I,

[01:03:43] I'm mad for him in a lot of ways because I

[01:03:47] You know, I mean, but I guess when it comes down to

[01:03:57] Everything what what's supposed to happen happens and it's all meant for us to learn from and grow from and I guess that's the take home And I know that that's got to be the take home that you you really couch on by the end of the day when

[01:04:06] When you've risen that high, I mean, at least you've felt a lot and you've experienced a lot in such a short amount of time and that's

[01:04:13] something that Gabe can really say for himself. I'm just so grateful that he's a friend of mine

[01:04:20] and he's always there to really influence me and he's always given me so much

[01:04:28] access to awesomeness. He surrounds himself with awesomeness so thank you

[01:04:35] Gabe for this part one. Next week we'll have part two. Please join us back because

[01:04:39] Gabe has more to share. We're gonna get get into a lot of fun AI talk, which should be pretty cool.

[01:04:47] Thank you listeners. I really appreciate your patience. This podcast is coming out late.

[01:04:53] So I really thank you for hanging in there and waiting for me to get my hardware issues under

[01:05:00] control. God bless you and have a powerful week.

[01:05:07] under control. God bless you and have a powerful week. Thanks for listening. You can find the Apprenticeship Diaries on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.

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[01:05:24] look forward to hearing from our listeners. Thanks for watching!