Ep. 213 "The Knowledge Hunter" (Diary Entry 1:2 with Kyle Devaney (Ghost))

[00:00:00] Hello and happy Tuesday diary listeners.

[00:00:04] We're here today with Kyle Devaney.

[00:00:07] He's also known as Kyle Ghost.

[00:00:09] He's a Aussie.

[00:00:11] So we're dubbing this first diary entry of his, this is one of two,

[00:00:18] The Knowledge Hunter.

[00:00:20] And you'll see why.

[00:00:22] Sorry, Kyle. I had to. I had to.

[00:00:27] Welcome to the Apprenticeship Diaries where raw meets refined.

[00:00:30] Let's be real. We're still working on the final.

[00:00:33] What it took, what it takes and the stories that are made.

[00:00:36] Join us as we learn from professionals about how their stories begin.

[00:00:40] Let's just sit okay.

[00:00:52] Yay.

[00:00:54] He agreed folks.

[00:00:55] Welcome Apprenticeship Diary listeners.

[00:00:58] I'm here today with Kyle Devaney or better known as Kyle Ghost of Ghost Gallery Tattoo.

[00:01:05] Kyle, thank you so much.

[00:01:07] Thanks for having me.

[00:01:09] Of course, of course.

[00:01:11] You've told me a little bit about your apprenticeship.

[00:01:14] I know you through meeting you at Rapture, but now you have your own studio.

[00:01:18] So you've, you've even furthered your journey since I first met you.

[00:01:23] We're going to go way back.

[00:01:26] Yeah, let's go all the way back.

[00:01:29] So first before we really get into it, how long have you been tattooing?

[00:01:33] I just hit my seven years professionally out of my apprenticeship.

[00:01:38] You're so good.

[00:01:41] Thanks.

[00:01:44] Like, I feel like you're so much better.

[00:01:46] So many of you are so much better than I feel like I am right now, but especially like at your timeline.

[00:01:53] I don't see it like that though.

[00:01:55] Like everybody has their own like stuff.

[00:01:57] Like I can't do what you do.

[00:01:58] You know what I mean?

[00:01:59] No, I don't.

[00:02:01] As in like, I just, I just feel like I've focused on one part or like my like one path and just like try to, I wouldn't say perfect it because like no one's perfect.

[00:02:13] Right. But like just trying to like push and see how far I can, how good I can get.

[00:02:19] Yeah.

[00:02:20] Just observing others and taking bits and pieces from different artists that I work with and and like conventions are a good point because you can go around and like look at different people.

[00:02:30] Yeah.

[00:02:32] It's working for you.

[00:02:34] Thank you.

[00:02:36] I don't think like how like that, but like I do.

[00:02:40] I do appreciate that and I, I love what we get to do.

[00:02:45] So it's amazing.

[00:02:47] I mean, I mean, you just mentioned it.

[00:02:49] I mean, yeah, I mean, you don't really compare yourself to other people in that way.

[00:02:54] You just keep hammering at what you feel is your own journey.

[00:02:57] And I definitely see it that way.

[00:02:59] I'm just saying that like optically you're good.

[00:03:03] Thank you.

[00:03:04] You're really good.

[00:03:08] So like going way, way, way back.

[00:03:11] Obviously the audience can hear you're Australian.

[00:03:16] What did the journey look like in the beginning?

[00:03:19] Like how did you, how did you come to tattooing?

[00:03:22] You know, did you always draw or you know, like?

[00:03:25] Yeah.

[00:03:26] So when I was a kid, I would always, I would always actually, it's funny that I do realism now because like obviously that's like a copy paste type thing, right?

[00:03:34] But I remember as a kid that I don't, I don't remember the timeline of how old I was, but I remember just sitting there and just like trying, I'd have pictures of the different Looney Tunes.

[00:03:44] And then I would sit there and try and like draw exactly how they look.

[00:03:49] Back then I thought I, that I nailed it.

[00:03:51] Can I swear on here?

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:53] Yeah, I thought I fucking nailed it.

[00:03:55] But unfortunately like I can't find any of those drawings and my parents don't have any of them unless they just can't find them.

[00:04:02] And then growing up, like when I hit my teens, like I kind of got out of that because like drawing is not cool type thing.

[00:04:09] And I just got into skateboarding or whatever.

[00:04:11] And then I revisited around like my early, probably like late teens, early twenties.

[00:04:17] And I just started drawing like different tattoo styles and trying all different pencils and like Copic markers and like all that.

[00:04:27] And then I was also in bands.

[00:04:30] So like I toured the world playing in bands and whatnot.

[00:04:33] Is that what led you here from Australia?

[00:04:36] Yeah. So while what led me here is that I met my wife on tour.

[00:04:40] So that's a kind of a side note, but that's how I got here.

[00:04:47] But when I was touring around as a touring musician, you don't make a lot of money.

[00:04:53] And I was like drawing in our bus or like at the merch table or whatever.

[00:05:00] Just trying to like people would message me and like ask me to draw their tattoos for them.

[00:05:06] And I would charge them like 50 bucks, 100 bucks, like whatever.

[00:05:09] Nice.

[00:05:11] And then I lived in Canada for a little bit for like a snow season, like because I love to snowboard.

[00:05:15] Right on.

[00:05:16] And then while I was on tour, someone approached me and asked if I wanted to apprentice while I was not on tour.

[00:05:22] And I didn't end up that that's kind of I didn't ever think that I was going to tattoo.

[00:05:27] It wasn't something that like I thought I could do.

[00:05:30] I just drew because it was fun.

[00:05:34] And then, yeah. So once I left the band, I moved to be with my wife or at the time girlfriend and just continue drawing.

[00:05:43] And that's what I wanted to push.

[00:05:45] And then I ended up going and like handing like I feel like it doesn't happen anymore.

[00:05:50] But like this is like hand drawn portfolio rather than like a fucking iPad.

[00:05:56] But I remember having like all these like tracing paint, like I would like to draw on tracing paper.

[00:06:02] And I just I remember how that stacks of them.

[00:06:06] So I'll just take them to different shops.

[00:06:08] And unfortunately, I didn't know what shops were good and which shops weren't.

[00:06:13] So I went through I think the very first shop that accepted me.

[00:06:17] I went in and I probably worked two days and I was like, I quit like wow.

[00:06:25] Was it was it just the attitude of the people or just like the whole thing was scary?

[00:06:30] It was more of like a really low street shop where they just like art doesn't come first.

[00:06:36] It's like how much money can we make off?

[00:06:38] And like when I came in, the very first day he threw me a machine and like was like tattooed like on this like grapefruit for like two days straight.

[00:06:49] And I was like, dude, I don't know how to set up the machine.

[00:06:51] Right.

[00:06:52] Luckily, someone helped me obviously.

[00:06:55] And then he on the end of the second day, he's like this was December, I think.

[00:07:02] He's like, I'll have you tattooed by February when we get you making some money.

[00:07:06] And I was like, dude, I like even as an apprentice, I knew that wasn't right.

[00:07:10] So I left and went to another shop and I stayed there for a little while.

[00:07:15] When I would imagine like a time pursuing a passion in a creative field, like music going all the way around the world and not making a lot of money pretty much primed you to be like, dude, I don't I don't think you understand why I'm in this.

[00:07:30] Like I'm not in this to just make gobs of money.

[00:07:34] Like I get that that's your motivation here.

[00:07:37] But like, yeah, I really want to learn and be good.

[00:07:41] And if the money comes as a result of that, that's great.

[00:07:44] But like this is this is something that I want to do well.

[00:07:48] And, you know, it seemed like it was a passion driven thing.

[00:07:51] You know, you were just saying that people were wanting it of you and you were making money of it.

[00:07:56] So you might as well pursue it.

[00:07:58] You know? Yeah.

[00:07:59] I definitely have like a that's a good that's a good way to put it.

[00:08:06] And I have like a I don't like to surround myself with people that have the wrong mentality when it comes to especially like what we do for a living.

[00:08:16] It's very much like a unique craft and I think it's like lost its way through whether it's like bike ran or it's like through like just people that just think it's an easy way to make money and like scarring people.

[00:08:32] And it's yeah, I'm not I would like with like shops like that we that we've worked in like Rapture or like my my own shop to set an example and push these people out of the industry, which obviously isn't going to happen.

[00:08:46] But we can try. Yeah.

[00:08:48] Well, I mean, I think it's going to definitely segment.

[00:08:52] And we have the whole advent of a you know, AI and machine technology coming in, which people are doing that now.

[00:09:01] There's also on the client level people paying to be anesthetized so that they can get four artists to just give them a back piece and like one sitting.

[00:09:10] Yeah, I don't I don't know how I feel about that. Like that's the whole thing. And even like the AI thing that you just touched on.

[00:09:17] It's I had a conversation with another artist and it was it was I could I could see why it could come handy.

[00:09:28] Like I was straight up just like against it. Like I don't I don't like the fact that you can type in a couple words and it comes up with a whole tattoo that that takes out the creativity for us, right?

[00:09:40] But this artist also brought up that if you if you're trying to do a portrait of somebody and you cannot find a good image and that AI can bring up that good image and it's perfect.

[00:09:52] I could see that I could see that like benefits of that. So I see the pros and cons of it.

[00:09:58] Well, I think the the the thing that they need to wrangle in with AI is source materials because for instance, and it might already be taking place.

[00:10:16] Like for example, a lot of the images are actually rendered because what they've done is on a lot of social media.

[00:10:25] They've said basically once you put it on social sites, we own the image. And so what they've done is then on the back end sold a bunch of artists work and allowed for these AI technologies to compile artistic works that now they're selling as creative apps to like, you know, put your picture in the picture.

[00:10:45] Put your picture in there and make it look like a Renoir or make it look like this artist or that artist.

[00:10:51] And that's where it's kind of like, oh man, we didn't we didn't know that when they said we own it in that way that that's how they were going to use it and kind of subvert our ability to make money off of our craft.

[00:11:07] We should have seen that coming because throughout history artists have always been kind of used that way. But that's the new the new thing. So now we have to get a little bit more savvy, I think when it comes down to where are they getting these materials?

[00:11:21] How are they getting them? You know, what are we going to allow for? What are we not going to be allowed for? And we'll have to push back in ways that are integral if we really don't want them to continue to do those things.

[00:11:34] I think that if we're OK with taking this image that, you know, maybe is selling a celebrity's face in a million different ways that, you know, maybe they didn't agree to that it in some way is OK.

[00:11:52] I mean, celebrities get paid a lot of money, but, you know, so do we. We don't get paid, you know, chump change.

[00:11:58] But like as far as like the what gives me peace about tattooing is that we are we are the practitioners.

[00:12:06] We have to know how to actually tattoo. Yeah. There he is in the background. Mr. Elliott. No, it's Chris. Oh, it's Chris. Hey, Chris. What's up?

[00:12:18] She said hi. Hello. Hey. Oh, yeah. He can't hear me later.

[00:12:27] Right on. Well, that was cool. Nice little interlude. Yeah. Guest appearance. I know.

[00:12:37] Wonderful. Maybe I'll get him on another episode as he's, you know, on his journey. That's awesome.

[00:12:42] I don't even. I mean, I guess like he's I don't even know if he's a Finnish. He's apprenticeship. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I'm not sure.

[00:12:50] I think I'm at all phases. Yeah. Right. I think he's done with it.

[00:12:55] I've interviewed people before they even started their apprenticeship, you know, just to just to let people know what that looks like.

[00:13:02] That'd be a cool interview. Just like where the mindset where they think they're going to be.

[00:13:08] And it'd be cool to touch base like five years from now and see where they actually are.

[00:13:12] Because when I first started, all I wanted to do was color neotraditional.

[00:13:19] And I didn't do that for a long time. And yeah, no, totally flipped gears.

[00:13:24] Well, and you know, at least at least you knew what neotraditional was.

[00:13:31] Yeah. You know, the the birthing of the genres was really going down.

[00:13:36] I think it was a little bit pre me when I did my second apprenticeship.

[00:13:41] But before that, it was like. I mean, I don't even know, because it wasn't stressed in my first apprenticeship.

[00:13:49] My first apprenticeship was in a biker shop. So like and it was Cherry Creek Flash Tribal praying hands, you know?

[00:14:00] Like that kind of shit. Who knows what?

[00:14:02] Like there was definitely black and gray and there was definitely American traditional.

[00:14:06] But like you didn't have I mean, I guess you did have them, but like.

[00:14:12] It became a lot more choreographed into those genres as time went on and as like you kind of hit the Renaissance of tattooing.

[00:14:20] Yeah. Yeah. So you had, you know, and neotraditional is dope.

[00:14:27] It is a very beautiful, I think solid art form for tattooing.

[00:14:34] I think it's just so cool because it can branch off into so many different like styles, but still be neotrad.

[00:14:40] Yeah, exactly. Well, and it's so technically sound in tattooing as well.

[00:14:47] Yeah. And I think it invokes a lot of what you now do, which is that you're purely contrast.

[00:14:54] But I also recognize within neotraditional, there's a huge need to not be like me, where she used like every fucking color and hue under the rainbow.

[00:15:03] But it's really concrete about having high contrast in line weight color, you know, just shadowing all of it like it encompasses everything in this beautiful graphic package.

[00:15:17] So it definitely hones those things. So I see it being a really superior genre.

[00:15:25] Yeah, I think I think it just covers so many things. And then you are and you have artists like Glendale Bully and he does like some crazy like just really smooth, pretty girl faces and you go across and you have like a guy named things he's Matt Curzon.

[00:15:41] And he does like straight up just like packed, simplistic neotrad in it. But it's like amazing. It's almost borderline traditional, but it's so good.

[00:15:51] Yeah. And it just like is so like vastly different, but it's like the same genre.

[00:15:57] Yeah. Derek Noble's one that comes to mind for me because you couldn't call him traditional, but it's definitely his own spin on like near traditional.

[00:16:06] That's that's very cool and very him. I love Derek Noble.

[00:16:11] I have I do too. He's a really good artist. I think I bought I have this eagle painting in my shop and it's on it's so traditional, but it's all it's it's got to be near track because like it's not so simple.

[00:16:24] Like it's got color blends and all that. I believe the artist is Eli Bowman, but it's one of my favorite paintings and it's so simple, but it's just like it's so it's just in between both.

[00:16:36] I can't figure out which one it is. Yeah. Yeah. But you're right. It does. It does have a vastness to it. That's pretty neat. And I think that's why a lot of people start with traditional.

[00:16:47] So when you left this two day nightmare, where did you go from there?

[00:16:54] I actually went down like a mile down the street to the next shop. Okay. It's actually the first shop that I actually ever walked in and I was actually living in Michigan at the time.

[00:17:03] Okay.

[00:17:04] So I did my apprenticeship in Michigan and for what will be said throughout this podcast, I'll probably leave the name of the shop and everything out of it.

[00:17:14] That's good. I just interviewed Josh and he did the same thing. Yeah, it's the story. It doesn't have to be. It's your story. The story is what matters. Not not the names.

[00:17:24] Yeah. Yeah. But um yeah so I went down the street and did the I think I was I was there for about nine months and

[00:17:36] I'm not somebody that thinks I'm better than everybody else, but I definitely felt like I outgrew everybody in there.

[00:17:42] I also picked up really bad habits because they would I didn't pick up the cross contamination part, but they would just cross contaminate. They wouldn't clean up after themselves.

[00:17:55] And they were just money driven. They didn't care. Like I watched every single one of them print photos of other tattoos off and trace them and put them on somebody.

[00:18:04] It's it was just like something that I didn't really stand for. And then I ended up moving out to Pennsylvania, which I'm still here. But well, and in focusing on that though, when you walked in or I guess you had your stack full of tracings, right?

[00:18:22] Mm hmm. Okay. What did it what did it how did they formulate it? Like was there curriculum? Did they start you out tracing certain things? Were you a shop person who like cleaned everything up? Like how did they utilize you? What did the apprenticeship look like?

[00:18:38] So the apprenticeship, I don't think it definitely didn't have a curriculum. I started off making 40% whenever I did like when I was finally actually tattooing. But I was pretty much just the shop bitch like I had to clean everybody's tubes. I had to like pack up and set up clean stations and set them up and everything like that, which is normal, whatever.

[00:19:04] But if I didn't do it like, okay, for instance, like they would have lunch and like the way the lobby was, it was a massive lobby. And it had like a big U shaped desk in the middle of it. And everybody would just stand around and eat but they would just like leave all their rubbish and then go and sit in their rooms or whatever. So if I was tattooing or whatever, or if I was not there, like it would just stay there. So like me as an apprentice, I'm like, guys, like I'm cool with cleaning up, I'm cool with cleaning up. I'm cool with cleaning up. So that's what I was doing and I'm cool with cleaning up.

[00:19:31] So like me as an apprentice, I'm like, guys, like I'm cool with cleaning up. But like you guys, like it's not it's a tattoo shop, man. Like throw your stuff away.

[00:19:39] Right. This is where people come, you know, come in at, you know, this is what they see. Yeah.

[00:19:45] It's really hard when you have that kind of mentality on a customer service basis of what you know you should accept.

[00:19:57] And then you go in because that same thing happened to me at one point when I was an apprentice, not with the trash, but with a whole like, hey, man, kind of cool that you show up 15 minutes after your client.

[00:20:10] Like, yeah, the hell.

[00:20:13] Well, there'd be times that like a guy would come in and my mentor, I use that very lightly.

[00:20:20] He would only work Friday, Saturday, Sunday. He would come in and he'd be wearing the exact same clothes. He has like one set of clothes for the entire weekend.

[00:20:29] So he just fucking stank. And then on top of that his room was messy.

[00:20:34] He would have a cat. He had a couch in his room so he would just like fall asleep in there. I remember countless times I'd walk in there and be like, hey dude, someone's here to see you and he's like, you deal with it.

[00:20:44] Wow.

[00:20:46] So no passion. So as much passion as you were coming with. He didn't have hardly any it seemed.

[00:20:55] Yeah, and then he would I have a photo of his station when he wasn't there because he would just like sit. He used to use a coil. He uses like a different machine now but at the time I was an apprentice he was using coils and

[00:21:09] No, no barriers. Nothing like he would. He had this like machined piece of metal that would hold different size in caps. And the only thing he would put a dental bib down.

[00:21:22] He had two dental bibs and like his desk was cluttered with shit. And then he would have the dental bib and then you'd set that metal tray down and then a piece of plastic wrap.

[00:21:32] And then all he would do to tattoo the next person was take the plastic wrap off and move the first dental bib. He would still sit dirty needles and like tubes next to his already working station.

[00:21:45] And then we're just straight up just like put another dental bib down and new plastic wrap and then go. Whoa.

[00:21:52] No spraying down like no nothing like all his like ink bottles were in like buckets like tubs on the floor under his workstation. So like as I mean if anyone's listening to that's not a tattoo artist. Right.

[00:22:05] Ink drips, ink sprays. It gets it gets everywhere. It gets everywhere. Yeah, it's not like. But it definitely obeys gravity which means that it goes down when it goes up. So having them higher than you are sitting is better.

[00:22:21] He wouldn't like cover his like soap bottle. I remember watching him like take one glove off and grab an ink bottle with that hand and then have just like a paper towel with this dirty hand and open it.

[00:22:35] Wow.

[00:22:37] So you're seven years in. So that was definitely around where there was some technology for you to know better. Did you like know more about technology?

[00:22:46] I'm sure you got the sense that there was something off. But like when you were there did you like just go home and like cross pollinate what you had learned there and like check out online if it was different. Did you have any resources outside of that shop to kind of task what you were seeing?

[00:23:01] Yeah, so I knew like the big no-nos.

[00:23:09] But there was just like little things that I would pick up here and then like quickly like once I got to the next shop like was like snapped out of. But yeah, I've been I was getting tattooed for a number of years before that so like I kind of got like a gist of like how a shop should be.

[00:23:29] But yeah, I quickly learned that that shop wasn't going to be like a place where I wanted to stay.

[00:23:35] I got you. What was your first tattoo? Do you remember?

[00:23:39] I actually got a swallow with my grandfather's like it just like like a rest in peace.

[00:23:46] Oh, that was your first one.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:49] What was the first one that you did?

[00:23:51] Okay, so I actually got left by myself in the tattoo shop while it was still open because no one wanted to stay and I was just made to close and a lady came in and wanted a little like a plus like a plus with a blood drop.

[00:24:10] And this is a bad habit that I didn't know and I guess like thinking back is like I should have known but I didn't but she was pregnant.

[00:24:18] Oh shit.

[00:24:20] Yeah, and they were like yeah dude go for it.

[00:24:22] Oh no.

[00:24:24] But but I didn't know and looking back I'm like that was really stupid like I didn't know.

[00:24:29] But I should I feel like it's something that I should have known.

[00:24:32] But yeah, I'm sure the kids fine.

[00:24:36] Yeah, and then I used to draw these little. Yeah, right. I used to draw these like little tiny like unique little roses. So like I remember that being one of my first tattoos as well.

[00:24:44] Right on. Right on.

[00:24:46] What did you use? Did you start with coils?

[00:24:48] I did start with coils. I had a custom made coil. I cannot it's from New Zealand. I cannot remember the guy's name. But I contacted him and he shipped me one.

[00:25:03] Okay.

[00:25:04] I'm dude like naming the exact FK irons that I use right now I probably couldn't tell you I'm so not interested in the names like it's it's like I'm not interested in the names.

[00:25:15] I'm not interested in the names.

[00:25:17] I'm not interested in the names.

[00:25:19] I'm not interested in the names.

[00:25:21] I'm dude like naming the exact FK irons that I use right now I probably couldn't tell you I'm so not interested in the names like it's so many.

[00:25:35] There's so many they keep making them. But coils are definitely cool and there are some there are some makers that are iconic and so when you name things like that, you know, but it's definitely a thing that

[00:25:50] you know, it's not common nowadays or if it is it's with people who like you said custom make them and they have their own like Dan Cuban and people who make their own version of a really cool tattoo machine.

[00:26:05] Did you have to build coils at all? Like what was the vastness of your knowledge? Like as far as did you have to learn to make needles or anything like that?

[00:26:16] No, I didn't have to. I really the only thing they wanted me to do was clean. That's it. Really? They didn't really teach me like a hell of a lot.

[00:26:25] As far as like building coils like I remember taking one apart that didn't work and he wanted me to put it back together and it still didn't work. So I mean, I just put it back the way it was.

[00:26:38] But I unfortunately it's a knowledge that I would love to learn, but I don't ever see myself using coils again and I don't really want an apprentice.

[00:26:48] I don't know besides knowing the knowledge and it's be like very handy to have to like, but you're in a very early phase of opening up your own place.

[00:26:59] So the time might come where you invite somebody to do a seminar to teach your crew of people how to do it and that way, you know, you can you can proliferate that knowledge and pay somebody else to like, you know, come and do a workshop.

[00:27:14] Yeah. Are you okay? I want to make sure he's fine. Oh yeah, I just was checking on him. Cool. No, he's good. Yeah.

[00:27:23] But yeah, the okay. So what was I guess the last straw there? Because it doesn't sound like there's much the great from this place that you're really able to like hold on to.

[00:27:34] Yeah, there's only like one. I talked to two of the guys still but they're not like, like I said, they just like, I don't know, they're not really like a big group.

[00:27:46] There's only like one. I talked to two of the guys still but they're not like, like I said, they're just like, it doesn't seem like their passions in it like they just want to make money or they think that they know what they're doing.

[00:27:57] I remember talking to one of the guys there and he was like, he had the mentality is like if you had, if you're a client of mine you get tattooed by someone else then you're no longer my client.

[00:28:07] If, like he thinks he's the shit like he, he's, but he's not that good. Right.

[00:28:15] I remember guys there like telling me that I remember him tattooing for me like four or five hours and he like switched needles out and I asked him why he's like because it goes blunt. I was like what?

[00:28:26] I mean, I have had needles doll after like eight hours of tattooing.

[00:28:32] But that does happen but like, all right. After four.

[00:28:39] But as far as the last straw, as an apprentice I did a guest spot.

[00:28:45] And it was actually the shop that I ended up working out here and I was just treated way better, even though I was still an apprentice and everybody was like super cool and it was a nicer place.

[00:29:01] I made like a ton of money like in the first like four or five days that I was there. Right.

[00:29:11] It just seemed like a smart move and I'm glad I did it because through that experience I learned a lot but

[00:29:20] Can I ask. So how did I one, you were able to do a guest spot from an apprenticeship. That's pretty gracious thing to be allowed to go outside of your apprenticeship to do a guest spot.

[00:29:36] Yeah, I can't honestly I can't remember if it was something that he was like, about that.

[00:29:41] Or like, I'm doing this like I don't give a shit what you say I don't remember.

[00:29:47] Yeah, but like yeah right now like.

[00:29:50] See I don't know like if I had if I had an apprentice and they want to do a go get do a guest spot, depending where it was all the knowledge man like if you want to go do that and like they want to teach you some stuff and you want to learn and like I think that's what a guest spot's about like you're meeting people and marketing and learning and.

[00:30:11] And then if you're not learning like what's the point of doing it. Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:15] Well, and I there's some some security there that, you know, you know you're teaching somebody

[00:30:24] a lot of right foundational stuff at least you hope it didn't seem like that was your, your case but

[00:30:31] you know I, I would say that, you know, I'm not sure I haven't had anybody want to do a guest spot.

[00:30:41] Of course, I've only had a handful of people that have tried to teach, but the one that she didn't want to do a guest spot until she was a year, a year and some change in, and she went all the way to Australia.

[00:30:56] And she was kind of freaked out. She was like, well, what if I fail? And I was like, what you mean like die on the plane on the way there? Like, what do you mean by fail?

[00:31:06] Yeah. What is failure and what is this failure that you're talking about? I was like, dude, you're going to another country to tattoo. That is not something I've even done yet.

[00:31:17] I'm already like amazed that you that you're doing this. I think it's really, really cool. I'm like there's no failure as far as I can tell. Do it man. Like that's awesome.

[00:31:27] Yeah, that's that's that's amazing. Yeah, it was a little too real for her. She realized that like it was it was kind of like jumping in the deep end with just knowing the dog you've had all kind of thing but even that such a great learning experience.

[00:31:42] Like you said, you know, you're going to find out really quickly what you do and don't know by by experiencing something like that. So I guess I guess it would all depend on the personality of the person that you're teaching.

[00:31:55] You know, like going back to your if I had an apprentice, you know, what would I let them go? I'm sure it would be a gauge of who you were actually instructing because if they're thick headed and you know they're just going to be a little, you know, and you're like, dude, fucking go like go.

[00:32:12] Yeah, enjoy.

[00:32:15] Yeah, like, I mean, that was the case with you. They were just like, dude, this guy, just go.

[00:32:22] I think some apprentices definitely need that like they need that. I feel like the old school way of apprenticing needs to be taught in some cases.

[00:32:34] I feel like some kids or people, however old you are, apprenticing definitely think they know it all. They have it easy or whatever. I'm sure I was at that like I was like that at one point but now that I'm in it like I don't I have a different thought process throughout the whole thing.

[00:32:54] I do think there's a difference between, you know, when you sit actually before I do that. What do you mean by old school?

[00:33:07] With sit down. Yeah, yeah. With some people.

[00:33:17] It's just like, it's, how do I explain it? I feel like it's like handed to them or they like their hands are held throughout the process so that their feelings don't get hurt.

[00:33:30] I don't think it is about that. Like, I think it just wanes out the people that are serious about it.

[00:33:39] Right. So an old school way is more focus, if I'm to flip that is more about you learn the craft, you learn the culture of tattooing, tattooing hardcore, fuck your feelings.

[00:33:55] So much that like because I do care about everybody and the experiences that tattooing brings them but I've had it, I've had a parent has it really early on in my career which I shouldn't have done.

[00:34:11] But they wanted me to hold their hand throughout the process and if you haze them they like just like ran and cried about it. Yeah.

[00:34:20] Where I think hazing is part of it and I don't think it's a cruel like obviously you can go too far with it. But just take your friends for example, everybody hazes each other because they love you.

[00:34:31] So, so it's not, it's not always the case with when it comes to like tattooing but

[00:34:39] I just

[00:34:40] I just

[00:34:42] like an apprentice saying no to like a task that you told them or they're not completing it.

[00:34:48] There's got to be some like boundaries or some rules set in place and I think hazing comes up with that because

[00:34:55] I don't know, it makes you, in some kind of way it makes you like become serious. I don't know how to explain it other than that but

[00:35:02] Well,

[00:35:04] I will say this that there is at least I can tell and I'm, I'm, I feel you. There is a

[00:35:14] seeing the forest for the trees. So if you allow somebody to indulge their feelings

[00:35:22] in the face of what you need them to learn that is not going to make them a good professional.

[00:35:28] So if you have to humble a person within their feelings because their feelings are more important to them than actually learning the craft

[00:35:40] then you kind of know that, that they're not ready for the craft or you have to bring them to a point

[00:35:49] to where they understand that this is not about your feelings. This is a business. This is

[00:35:53] about doing something that ultimately you're going to be doing on another person and you have to execute and this is a lot of pressure.

[00:36:01] And if you're not able to handle this phase of it, you're not going to handle, you're not going to be able to handle the latter part well at all.

[00:36:10] And that you, you know, so it's kind of like a enough of a pressure to basically shape somebody into the kind of executor that they can be some kind of practitioner that they actually can be.

[00:36:23] But I think for me hazing implies on unnecessary things that

[00:36:30] are hard to create a certain level of humility, which shows a power structure.

[00:36:37] But I think that that happens a lot of times because you're

[00:36:46] and it's weird because it happens a lot of the time because I'm trying to think of how to do it.

[00:36:53] Like in the times of where, for instance, you're going to war, nobody cares who you are on that battlefield.

[00:37:04] You are a body. You are the enemy. You will die and you are you're just you're nothing.

[00:37:11] So hazing when you're preparing somebody to go to war is necessary because of what they are actually training to do.

[00:37:20] They are actually putting themselves in a position where they are a body that is being thrown at an assault where they are going to be seen that way.

[00:37:30] And you need to mentally get them there, whereas with tattooing, I feel like in certain respects, that's the truth.

[00:37:39] You know, you have to be able to groom somebody to understand that you're not going to be able to do that.

[00:37:46] So I think that's a good thing.

[00:37:48] And I think that's a good thing because it's a good thing because it's a good thing because it's a good thing to be able to groom somebody to understand that, you know, this is this is an execution type thing.

[00:38:03] I need you to be able to do this, do it well, keep yourself in the mindset of what you need to do, what your roles are, what what you owe your client, what is and is not about you.

[00:38:16] And then you have to be able to really manage the dynamic of what what kind of dynamic they have with their client.

[00:38:23] They then can be over manipulated by their client and then they're they're able to be abused a lot by their client influence per money, poor, poor power, poor, you know, like is any have those powerful forces?

[00:38:38] But I agree with you that there's there's a certain level of ownership of the role of mentor that you have to take where there's a certain knowledge of what lines are able to be crossed and not able to be crossed.

[00:38:53] And you know, right where they are.

[00:38:56] Yeah.

[00:38:57] Yeah, I think.

[00:38:58] I think it also comes down to the type of person that you're teaching.

[00:39:03] Yeah, because some people some people are money driven and some people just want to like truly be in it for their craft for the for the craft of tattooing.

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:13] Well, and some people respond well to hazing.

[00:39:16] For me, for example, I wasn't one of them.

[00:39:20] I would get really nasty and I would tell people the time this is too heavy a hand for me.

[00:39:26] All you have to do is tell me to not do that again, and I will not.

[00:39:30] I will not.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:32] Now, I might have some follow up questions like why?

[00:39:37] And for me, when it comes down to learning environments, if you can't ask follow up questions, that's also a bad thing.

[00:39:45] Because if you can't ask a question as to why, why can't I?

[00:39:50] Why can't I know why I can't do that?

[00:39:52] Like what is the reason to this?

[00:39:56] Everyone learns differently.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:58] Well, there's like a bunch of different learning styles, I guess you would say.

[00:40:01] Like I'm very like hands on.

[00:40:02] I can watch and then try to replicate it to like whatever I'm doing.

[00:40:06] In this case, we're talking about tattooing.

[00:40:11] But if I was like read something, I don't I don't absorb the information as well as if I was just to do it.

[00:40:17] Yeah.

[00:40:18] Yeah. There's a lot of people and it is learning.

[00:40:21] Knowing the learning style of the person that you're in front of is definitely a thing.

[00:40:27] Yeah, most definitely.

[00:40:28] Like I'm a much more kinesthetic learner too, and just let me get into it, get dirty and play.

[00:40:35] And I learned through playing that way and picking things up and feeling it.

[00:40:38] But I kind of got screwed with my apprentice where she was a very technical learner.

[00:40:43] So she wanted me to break it down.

[00:40:46] That's not how I learn, first of all.

[00:40:48] And also, it's not how I think like I don't think about things technically that label, you know, like, oh, I have this needle and it's going to produce this result.

[00:40:57] And I'm going to use this ink because this ink does this in this like she was she was that I'm a person like I'm going to burn this fucking piece of wood.

[00:41:08] And then I'm going to start scratching on the side of the sidewalk and I'm going to make a painting of a face with it.

[00:41:15] And I'm going to walk away.

[00:41:16] And I like it did a thing and I don't even know, you know, I was like, oh, cool.

[00:41:22] This is I can do this now.

[00:41:24] Just do it.

[00:41:25] And then like, that's me.

[00:41:26] Like I am very whimsical that way.

[00:41:29] So for me, it was it was really important for me to know all of like you were saying the cross contamination, the the bio kind of stuff implications so that I knew how much I was hurting another person for my actions so that I would not do that.

[00:41:47] And I care a lot about people.

[00:41:50] So learning all that stuff was really important, which is why when I say when somebody says to me, don't do that.

[00:41:57] When I say why, that's why I want to know why not you're learning.

[00:42:03] Yeah, I agree with that.

[00:42:04] You know, how is this hurting somebody?

[00:42:07] Because if I have to say if you saying adamantly, don't do it.

[00:42:10] Why not to do it?

[00:42:11] So yeah, yeah.

[00:42:13] Like tell me why so I can learn so that I know why.

[00:42:17] Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:19] Well, so you went on a guest spot to PA from Michigan.

[00:42:23] And were you planning on going and living in PA then?

[00:42:27] Not not at the time, but after that first guest spot like I definitely wanted to.

[00:42:31] Yeah.

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:33] And then I remember calling my wife and being like we should do this.

[00:42:38] How was she during the whole thing?

[00:42:40] Like what was that like?

[00:42:42] She was very supportive.

[00:42:43] Yeah, she ended up coming like she just we like I remember the time frame.

[00:42:48] It was pretty quick, but I just like dropped everything and like packed up and.

[00:42:52] Wow.

[00:42:53] That's pretty cool.

[00:42:55] I've never been that transient in my life.

[00:42:58] I admire it greatly because I feel like I'm a little too precious with my environment.

[00:43:03] I mean, as you can tell, like I mean, you have lots of paintings up behind you, too.

[00:43:06] But like I like take everything in a bag of shit with me.

[00:43:10] It's a little harder to do that now with kids, but yeah.

[00:43:16] Yeah.

[00:43:17] Yeah.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:19] Well, and that's I mean, for somebody who doesn't have kids, I certainly figure out

[00:43:22] a way to do that to just like make roots and not go anywhere.

[00:43:27] Yeah.

[00:43:29] I'm like at the point where I don't feel like anywhere feels like home right now.

[00:43:33] But I would definitely like to move home one day if that's like on the car.

[00:43:38] That'd be cool.

[00:43:39] Yeah.

[00:43:40] I'm being Australia, but yeah.

[00:43:43] Yeah.

[00:43:44] Do you miss it?

[00:43:45] Yeah.

[00:43:46] Lately, I've missed it more than ever.

[00:43:48] Yeah.

[00:43:49] Do you like the tattoo scene there more?

[00:43:51] Does it strike you as better than here or have you experienced it and then tattooed

[00:43:56] there yet?

[00:43:57] I've tattooed.

[00:43:58] I haven't tattooed in shops that I've tattooed in like my own like little area,

[00:44:02] but tattooing is definitely different there.

[00:44:05] Like it's licensed.

[00:44:06] It's it was very heavily like by her affiliated.

[00:44:10] So to the government's way of like fighting that was to cut down on gang stuff

[00:44:16] is to regulate tattooing and they now like I guess you would call a regular

[00:44:23] but all tattoo artists need licenses and to I don't know if their background

[00:44:29] checks, but like you got to make sure you don't you're not affiliated with

[00:44:32] certain biker gangs.

[00:44:33] Same with tattoo shop owners like they have to have a different type of license

[00:44:39] and renew it every so on so forth and each state is different regulations and

[00:44:44] all that shit.

[00:44:45] Yeah, I mean, there are things.

[00:44:47] I don't like that side of things, but.

[00:44:49] It sounds pretty familiar to hear though too in a lot of ways honestly.

[00:44:54] A lot of even within states there's certain cities that demand certain

[00:44:59] licensure just because like for instance, LA is such a huge collection of like

[00:45:03] Hells Angels and stuff like that.

[00:45:05] So they have pretty animate boycott on Hells Angel affiliations and things

[00:45:12] like that.

[00:45:13] Yeah, Hells Angels everywhere.

[00:45:16] Yeah, they are.

[00:45:17] I've met them in Italy.

[00:45:18] Like, yeah, yeah.

[00:45:21] Of course, they said it's different in Italy.

[00:45:22] They're like, you know, we're kind of more like family oriented here,

[00:45:26] but you know, whatever.

[00:45:28] Yeah, I would like that side of things, but the whole violence thing just for being

[00:45:33] violent is either I don't see the point in it.

[00:45:36] I also was hearing from an Italian and their entire way of being is different.

[00:45:41] I mean, they've got like five different kinds of law enforcement and different

[00:45:47] degrees of that.

[00:45:48] And you know, they're still they're still mob, you know, mob mentality in a lot

[00:45:55] of those places, a lot of different political, you know, mixing, blending.

[00:46:00] It's it's the whole thing.

[00:46:02] So yeah, I think people get by with what they need to get by with.

[00:46:06] But I've definitely seen the craft in Italy be amazing.

[00:46:09] I've seen incredible art.

[00:46:10] So I definitely know that the artists there and that's the thing is that I

[00:46:16] do think that really sincere artists that are coming from a point of

[00:46:20] passion like you're talking about really care about doing it well and keeping

[00:46:25] it keeping it done well, because the ramifications is the perception of what

[00:46:31] people see and what they think of you.

[00:46:35] There's going back to that question about I believe you asked if like I

[00:46:41] liked tattooing better in Australia or the tattoo culture.

[00:46:44] Yeah, it I like the culture more.

[00:46:47] When I first came to the United States, besides.

[00:46:50] Besides like people in tattoos, even people in tattoo shops aren't very

[00:46:55] heavily tattooed, at least that I've been around.

[00:46:58] They are heavily tattooed to like society standards.

[00:47:02] But where I came from, all my friends were covered.

[00:47:06] Yeah.

[00:47:07] And I was just like, where's everybody like, where's everybody at?

[00:47:10] Like no one's tattooed here.

[00:47:14] But so the culture is definitely different and I like I do miss it.

[00:47:20] But as far as like the tattoo shops, I don't really recall them being

[00:47:32] much different.

[00:47:33] They are still very much like actually a lot of the shops that I'll get

[00:47:40] tattooed in just smell like dead.

[00:47:42] Oh, really?

[00:47:43] Yeah.

[00:47:44] So like whenever I smell dead, that's all I can think of is like shops

[00:47:47] back home.

[00:47:48] Oh, so I thought that was kind of funny.

[00:47:51] But there is like I have some amazing friends that are so talented back

[00:47:56] home and like I would I would hope that they would come out and like

[00:48:00] do guest spots or like I can go there.

[00:48:02] Yeah, I hope that's in the future for you for sure.

[00:48:06] I mean, you're starting that venture.

[00:48:08] And yeah, that would be amazing.

[00:48:10] But me having I wouldn't call it a private shop, but it's more of like

[00:48:13] kind of like how Rapture is like it's it's it's set off to the side kind

[00:48:17] of thing.

[00:48:18] It's like appointment only really think I'm not really like in a

[00:48:21] strip mall on the beaten pot like on the on the main like road or

[00:48:24] anything like that.

[00:48:25] But I am still close to everything.

[00:48:27] So it just goes off by reputation, which is hard to have an

[00:48:32] international artist come out there if they don't know them, how to

[00:48:35] get them clients.

[00:48:36] Right?

[00:48:37] Well, I mean, you have you have a personal connection to where you

[00:48:40] can as long as you have the space, you can offer that to them and

[00:48:45] then just put them on blast.

[00:48:47] You know, while they're here.

[00:48:48] I'm pretty sure that just, you know, showing some photos about how

[00:48:52] dope they are and the fact that they're from Australia would get

[00:48:55] people be like, oh shit, I have to fly to Australia to get this

[00:48:59] person. I'm going to get on this.

[00:49:01] Yeah. Speaking of Neotrad, like we were before, Chris Vanessa is

[00:49:05] a friend of mine that I would love to have come over.

[00:49:07] He's so good.

[00:49:08] He does some insane Neotrad stuff.

[00:49:11] That's awesome.

[00:49:13] That's awesome.

[00:49:14] So shout out, I guess.

[00:49:16] No, that's good.

[00:49:17] I mean, I'm I usually ask for the end, you know, people that

[00:49:22] inspire you, but to have it trickled out, like I said, this is

[00:49:25] very organic.

[00:49:26] So to have them kind of speckled out.

[00:49:29] I like the free form because at the end of the day, this is a

[00:49:32] this is a meet and greet with you.

[00:49:34] This is going to be something to where, you know, like you like

[00:49:38] you said, meeting you five years from now after, you know,

[00:49:42] this point and talking again and seeing all of this, but that's

[00:49:46] what it calls a diary entry.

[00:49:48] This is just a moving timeline where people can meet you at a

[00:49:51] certain point, kind of know, you know, understand, meet other

[00:49:55] people through you that maybe they didn't know about before, but

[00:49:58] it's a it's a really interesting thing to kind of track somebody's

[00:50:02] learning environment and where they began.

[00:50:06] So from how did how did you leave the shop in Michigan?

[00:50:10] Like, how did that exit go?

[00:50:12] So that was a good exit.

[00:50:16] So I actually went back and I told him I was like, I'm thinking

[00:50:19] about I got offered a job and I think I'm going to relocate to

[00:50:22] Pennsylvania.

[00:50:26] And I think I gave him like two months in advance.

[00:50:31] It would I think it was at least two months and he just flipped

[00:50:37] shit like he was not stoked, which I mean, I get it.

[00:50:40] And he he seemed OK, like he understood.

[00:50:45] Right. And then he over I don't know if he like heard me

[00:50:55] talking to people, but I would just assume that he did.

[00:50:58] And he like pulled me in his room and I had like I think I had a

[00:51:03] month left or like two weeks left or something.

[00:51:06] And he just he fired me.

[00:51:07] He's like, you're disrespectful.

[00:51:09] You're telling you're like trying to bring them to like the new

[00:51:11] shop and all that stuff.

[00:51:12] And I was like, dude, I'm moving like two states away.

[00:51:14] Like, right. This is people are asking where I'm going.

[00:51:18] Of course, I'm going to tell them.

[00:51:19] I doubt they're going to follow me.

[00:51:21] Yeah, I did actually have people follow me still.

[00:51:24] I mean, for sure.

[00:51:27] But but yeah, no, it was it was kind of wild.

[00:51:30] Like he just he fired me and just like made up some excuses

[00:51:34] and all that stuff.

[00:51:35] So I just just packed my shit and like dipped out.

[00:51:38] So it was cool.

[00:51:41] Yeah, it's a hard thing because I've seen this come up on

[00:51:46] tattoo boards like like communication boards like, oh, you know,

[00:51:50] if I know what I want, I know if I want to leave a shop,

[00:51:53] how should I do it?

[00:51:54] Because in normal business settings, it's like I give two weeks

[00:51:58] notice. That's protocol.

[00:52:00] You know, let let the person be able to wrap their head around

[00:52:05] this. I work out the remainder.

[00:52:07] I'm able to let people know I'm leaving.

[00:52:09] And then tattoo world, there's so much emotionality that goes

[00:52:12] into it at times that it's a it's hard to know.

[00:52:17] And it can be precarious, too, because they might decide to

[00:52:21] like, you know, go after your stuff or like really sabotage you

[00:52:26] or whatever. You know, like it's it's hard to know how to play

[00:52:29] it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:30] I've always tried to take the respectful route.

[00:52:33] It's just my own like morals and like it goes.

[00:52:38] I guess it goes along with like treat people how you want to

[00:52:40] be treated.

[00:52:43] Although some people don't deserve it.

[00:52:45] But that's just how I would like to take that.

[00:52:49] But I've definitely known of known artists to like finish for the day

[00:52:53] and pack their shit and dip out.

[00:52:55] Yeah. And like the only way they know they don't work there anymore

[00:52:58] is you show up and they're not there.

[00:53:00] Wow. Wow.

[00:53:03] Yeah, that's rough.

[00:53:04] Yeah, it is rough.

[00:53:11] I mean, go ahead.

[00:53:12] Sorry. No, I was going to say like I've just worked for like all

[00:53:15] different kinds of people.

[00:53:16] I haven't been in like a ton of shops, but I've worked with

[00:53:19] people that this apprentice, the place I did my apprenticeship,

[00:53:24] the max he will pay you is 50 percent.

[00:53:26] And like you have to supply 100 percent of everything.

[00:53:31] And then I've worked in other shops where they'd supply like some

[00:53:34] of your stuff and then they give you like a little higher percentage.

[00:53:37] And then I've worked for shops that give you pretty much anything

[00:53:40] and everything can treat you well.

[00:53:43] It's it's cool to have that that the experience because then,

[00:53:49] you know, like what direction do you want to take your own path?

[00:53:52] Right.

[00:53:53] For instance, like the way I want to run my shop.

[00:53:56] But yeah, definitely.

[00:53:58] It's a it's called the I'm grateful to have all those experiences for sure.

[00:54:02] Yeah. So you moved to P.A.

[00:54:06] I'm assuming you learned a lot more there.

[00:54:08] Would you say that's like an extension of your apprenticeship?

[00:54:10] Like, would you consider that still within that range?

[00:54:13] Yeah, I didn't ever finish officially finished my apprenticeship.

[00:54:18] Yeah, I never got that like, hey, dude, you're done.

[00:54:20] It was just like I moved in like how to go for it.

[00:54:25] But yeah, there's some artists that I worked with that were just like.

[00:54:30] What an amazing artist and.

[00:54:36] I remember I used to work with this artist,

[00:54:40] and he's unfortunately not with us anymore, but I just remember him.

[00:54:45] Like it drilled into my head.

[00:54:46] He's like, don't be afraid of black.

[00:54:48] And I think that's why my work is so dark because it's just like,

[00:54:52] all right, well, this is black.

[00:54:53] So it's got to be black.

[00:54:54] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:56] Now I.

[00:54:59] I heard that a lot too.

[00:55:01] And it's funny because you're a professional artist.

[00:55:06] I ran into one of their artists and I showed him my portfolio.

[00:55:10] He was not the owner.

[00:55:11] And he was like, okay.

[00:55:13] So you're talented.

[00:55:15] Nobody's going to hire you here.

[00:55:17] The owner's not here.

[00:55:19] You know,

[00:55:21] you're somebody who could probably come in and say,

[00:55:23] Hey, I'm going to hire you here.

[00:55:25] So I guess I'm going to hire you here.

[00:55:27] So I'm going to hire you.

[00:55:28] And they're like,

[00:55:29] I'm going to hire you here.

[00:55:30] And then they're like,

[00:55:31] Oh, I'm going to hire you.

[00:55:32] That's what I'm going to do.

[00:55:33] And then he said,

[00:55:34] Hey, you're a professional artist.

[00:55:36] You're a professional artist.

[00:55:37] You're, you're,

[00:55:38] you're somebody who could probably compete and, you know,

[00:55:41] a short of an owner.

[00:55:43] You know, really hiring you to apprenticeship.

[00:55:46] You're not going to have that.

[00:55:47] So.

[00:55:49] At least not here because it we're just too busy and we don't

[00:55:53] need you. We're already staffed all this stuff.

[00:55:55] And I was like, dude, this is so kind of ridiculous.

[00:55:58] Like, I don't understand why it's so hard.

[00:56:00] OK, let's follow back to the conversation.

[00:56:03] So he's saying,

[00:56:04] You're a professional artist and you need to have a

[00:56:07] career in the industry.

[00:56:08] You know,

[00:56:09] and he's trying to figure out,

[00:56:10] you know,

[00:56:11] you need to have a career in the industry because you're

[00:56:14] going to be subsequent to a commissioner.

[00:56:16] And I'm like,

[00:56:17] I really want to hire you here.

[00:56:18] And then he said,

[00:56:19] And then he said,

[00:56:20] We would love to.

[00:56:21] You know,

[00:56:22] be able to do a job as a second agent at a company.

[00:56:25] And I was like,

[00:56:26] Oh,

[00:56:27] yeah, I'd want to.

[00:56:28] Want to do that.

[00:56:29] And you pretty much just keep moving until you reach a point to where you're with a good

[00:56:36] group of people and then you're good.

[00:56:39] And that's where I'm at now.

[00:56:41] He's like, but it takes a long time.

[00:56:43] It's so funny to hear that because I guess like you just like reconnected all the dots

[00:56:49] throughout my tattoo career.

[00:56:51] I did shitty tattoos and worked with some shitty people and then did less shitty tattoos

[00:56:56] and less shitty people on.

[00:56:57] And just it just went from there.

[00:56:59] And I just looked and I was like, well, that's shitty.

[00:57:02] Yeah, that's really shitty.

[00:57:05] And he was like, well, that's how it is, man.

[00:57:08] Like that's how it is.

[00:57:09] And I was like, dear God, how is that how it is?

[00:57:12] Because I came from art school.

[00:57:13] I was dropout.

[00:57:14] But I was like, it like was literally like a conflict in my brain that that could

[00:57:19] be the way a profession runs, especially something where you're putting permanent

[00:57:24] marks on people.

[00:57:25] And I was just like.

[00:57:27] What?

[00:57:28] And at this point, it wasn't even tattooed.

[00:57:29] You mentioned the tattoo culture.

[00:57:31] I was this little piss aunt with no tattoos wanting to be a tattoo artist

[00:57:35] because I had an epic art portfolio.

[00:57:37] I'd gone to art school.

[00:57:38] But, you know, I didn't I didn't have a tattoo.

[00:57:41] In fact, I tattooed before I got tattooed.

[00:57:44] So I was one of those.

[00:57:46] Oh, wow.

[00:57:47] You know, I definitely did not do that.

[00:57:49] Yeah, I know.

[00:57:50] I mean, you're way ahead of me.

[00:57:51] Like you're you're heavily tattooed.

[00:57:55] I.

[00:57:58] I think it's crazy.

[00:57:59] I think.

[00:58:01] Like kudos to him for like just being straight up and not having an ego about

[00:58:05] it. Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:07] No, I was very grateful because he did put me on the flashlights, and that was

[00:58:10] good because when I did walk into my next times going in front of tattoo

[00:58:15] shops, I had flash and they were impressed by that and they were like, wow,

[00:58:19] you know how to make flash.

[00:58:21] That's pretty cool.

[00:58:23] So it did help.

[00:58:24] It did help.

[00:58:26] But he was very like, yeah, you're not going to get hired here.

[00:58:32] I mean, at least he's honest, right?

[00:58:33] Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:35] But, you know, like it's one of those things where I do think there was a

[00:58:39] steady.

[00:58:42] Throw you back and then see if you come back kind of thing in the

[00:58:45] beginning of like, how eager are you?

[00:58:48] Will you be stymied by that initial rejection or you just keep coming

[00:58:53] back because you're incensed, you want to crack it?

[00:58:57] And at that point, I had a little ego and I was like, fuck this.

[00:59:00] I can, you know, he's not the only person that can't be the way.

[00:59:05] So I feel like like nowadays, it just doesn't exist.

[00:59:08] Yeah, no, I know.

[00:59:09] I mean, I don't know.

[00:59:11] I can't I haven't been everywhere.

[00:59:14] No, at least without like a little like just from my experiences

[00:59:18] and like at least around here, like if I told someone, no, they'd be like,

[00:59:20] I don't want to go somewhere.

[00:59:22] Yeah. Yeah. Well,

[00:59:24] I think it depends.

[00:59:25] Like, I like how I've heard other people talk about it when they've said

[00:59:32] if they're fairly decent artists, I'll give them an assignment

[00:59:36] and tell them to come back in two weeks.

[00:59:39] And if they come back, I give them another.

[00:59:42] And I won't exactly adopt them.

[00:59:46] But if they show initiative enough to do an assignment

[00:59:49] for a random person who didn't promise them anything,

[00:59:52] but they come back and they did it.

[00:59:55] I like that method of just being like, I'll give you a little something

[00:59:59] and we'll see what you do with that.

[01:00:02] OK, diary listeners, now we know you want to hunt more knowledge with us.

[01:00:07] So you're going to have to join us next week for part two with Kyle,

[01:00:12] Kyle Devaney, but that's Kyle Ghost on IG.

[01:00:15] So make sure to follow him there and definitely check out

[01:00:19] and follow his new tattoo studio called Ghost Gallery Tattoo Company.

[01:00:23] It's all one word.

[01:00:25] That's the IG handle.

[01:00:26] So go follow both and we'll catch you next week.

[01:00:29] Thank you, listeners. We love you.

[01:00:32] God bless. Have a powerful week.

[01:00:36] Thanks for listening.

[01:00:37] You can find the apprenticeship diaries on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.

[01:00:41] Our IG is the underscore apprenticeship underscore diary.

[01:00:45] If you would like to offer constructive criticism

[01:00:48] or an interview, drop us an email at the apprenticeship diaries at Gmail dot com.

[01:00:52] We look forward to hearing from our listeners.