Ep. 220 "New Beginnings" (Diary Entry 1:2 with Gunnar Gaylord)

[00:00:00] Hello diary listeners! Happy Tuesday! I have a wonderful guest today. It was a struggle though, I will say to figure out what I want to call this first part of this two-part diary entry with Gunnar. Gunnar Gaylord, he is amazing. It's Art

[00:00:21] of Gunnar as you might know him online. He is presenting at Paradise and that's where we met and it was kind of hard to dub this or title this but I think I'm just gonna call it New Beginnings because I think that's where we're at.

[00:00:40] So this is part one and I hope you all enjoy. Welcome to the Apprenticeship Diaries where Raw Meets Refined. Let's be real, we're still working on refining. What it took, what it takes and the stories that are made.

[00:00:56] Join us as we learn from professionals about how their stories begin. Alright, we're going! Welcome Apprenticeship Diaries listeners! I'm here today with Gunnar. Gunnar Gaylord and that's Art of Gunnar is what everything is kind of linked to

[00:01:18] that you can find him online. Welcome my friend, I'm so happy to have you. Hey, how's it going? Good, good. It's been a minute. It's been a minute. Oh my, it's so funny because you think that this is just a working relationship kind of thing

[00:01:37] that we just see each other once a year but no, this is every friendship I have. Yeah, if I don't go on the road I barely get to see people these days. That's how that goes.

[00:01:47] I know it got so bad at one point that my friends are like, dude, will I have to get tattooed to like see you? Yeah, yeah, that's a real thing that can happen. I managed to like integrate my career into a like, I'll make it to you.

[00:02:05] Like I'll go where the work is so that I can see you and so it's kind of like that's been like a huge benefit of this for me. Absolutely and that's the one of the benefits of the job is getting to travel and that was a plus.

[00:02:21] Yeah, make friends around the world. Oh yeah, and that's kind of how we met. We met at Paradise. So I had a great time talking with you. We met at the bar there in Jiminy Peak, Massachusetts and just a great time. You're a very cool person

[00:02:40] and I could tell, yeah, very passionate, very deep and care a lot. And that's the kind of people I love to know and that I really want to host on the show for sure.

[00:02:55] How long have you been tattooing now, Gunnar? I'm sure this is not uncommon knowledge but... Well, you know it's funny. So this would be 27 years now. So actually the seminar I'm doing Paradise again, it's called 27.

[00:03:10] I just decided to do a tip for every year I've been part of this career. That's awesome. I like the brevity of the name too. It's nice. Oh yeah, keep it simple. Yeah, it's like the answer to the most biting question from like Kitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[00:03:29] What was it? Like 34 or 32 or something like that? Oh, I can't, I'm not aware of that. Yeah, they were like, what? That's not the answer and they're like, we don't know the question.

[00:03:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to one yet because I was talking with Gabe and I'm like, I might need a better name, title and maybe better marketing on that. But it just fit. Like I was like, that's where I'm at.

[00:03:52] That's what we're doing. It seemed like it worked for me so... No, I think it, I don't know. I think it works well. I mean, you know. It's going to have to adapt every year now. That's what I set it up for.

[00:04:04] Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe. I don't know. Is there anything significant about 27? Like as far as like a number? I don't know. I think that's when all the like rock stars die unfortunately. You're right. That's the 27th club.

[00:04:20] Oh no, I think that's a great premise to like land on then. You know, like kind of like your career. You know what I'm saying? Like as long as it's not the death of my fucking career, then we're good. No.

[00:04:34] No man, totally not. No, I think that's a great. I think that's a great tie in honestly. Just to kind of have that reflection after that long because it... You're you've already survived, you know. Yeah. So, you know, that's great. Now it's just this next.

[00:04:52] Now it's what's next. Yeah, that's it. Well, first we're going to go back way back. So, before I think I remember hearing that you got into tattooing in school, right? Like when you were going to college. Yep. Yeah. How that looks.

[00:05:11] It's funny because so I got to hang out with Gabe today and then him and I went down to New Haven to have pizza.

[00:05:17] Because I guess New Haven is like super famous for its pizza. So we went to there and that's where I like had to go on to college.

[00:05:23] And it's where I started my apprenticeship. So it's kind of funny that I had started an apprenticeship at a place called Studio Z when I was in college down there.

[00:05:33] And then, yeah, so I didn't know like, you know, I was like a hardcore kid, you know, hardcore punk rock kid and skateboarder and stuff.

[00:05:43] And I'd drawn for friends and stuff. But I wasn't like an art. I would, I will never say I was an artist back then.

[00:05:52] Like a lot of people are like, I've been drawing my whole life. And I'm like, yeah, I have. But it was like, I was just, it was like notebook doodles at best.

[00:06:00] Like, and so, but I had done some like, you know, punk rock hardcore flyers, you know, used to paper up around the like campus and stuff.

[00:06:11] And had designed some tattoos for friends and then it got in. I went to go get tattooed. I started at the time I had like a little like skateboard clothing company.

[00:06:22] And it was just like, you know, printing and stuff. And nothing like significant, just like little screen printed shirts with sayings or whatnot.

[00:06:32] And so I was going to go get to like, you know, like a little logo thing. And ironically, it's so funny because everybody hates like clocks but that's what I got.

[00:06:41] I wanted this like little new school like chromed out clock back then and it's got like flames. So it was like kind of one of my first like significant big tattoos. And so while I was there, this kid Jerry Issel, who was tattooing there.

[00:07:01] Him and I got to talk in and he was like, you know, we're looking for an apprentice and I don't know if that's something you're at all interested in.

[00:07:08] I didn't know like I always like when I do my seminars and stuff and I bring these stories up like it was so different back then, you know, this was like 30 years ago now so I didn't know that like you could become a tattoo art like that was like a magical world that like, I didn't know

[00:07:25] what to be a part of. And, and so when the opportunity arose I was like this is something like this is something I can do and he's like oh yeah like you know just have to serve an apprenticeship and you learn how to do.

[00:07:38] Like I said I was going to school full time I was on the men's gymnastics team and I was working full time. And so, they're not full time I was working to help pay for college at the time, but I was like I don't want to miss this opportunity so when it was presented I was like hell yeah

[00:07:54] I'll take, I'll take that for sure. What were you going to school for just to interrupt for a second.

[00:08:00] So, ironically, my life is kind of come full circle because I started schooling to become an elementary school teacher. And then, I won't make a joke about teaching kids these days but then, then I changed my major part way through to business and broadcast communication.

[00:08:23] So it was like large group speaking small groups speaking, you know business communication stuff broadcast communication.

[00:08:32] So, and now I'm doing public speaking and stuff so it's like funny that it all ended up working out. But, so that's where I had started at and then, like I said I got this opportunity and I like immediately jumped on it because I was like enamored with the idea that like, you know, because it was such a cultural part of like

[00:08:52] everything I was into like that was skateboard punk rock culture was like tattoo. So it's like hell yeah like this is, this is it. So yeah, that's that was it like as soon as I like found out that that was the thing I could do it was like I'm in like I'm in.

[00:09:07] You don't have to sell me on this so. Yeah, that's what it is start like like what was your schedule like I mean how did you work out with your school.

[00:09:20] So now you know it's hard because I can't like, you know a lot of time passes and I think sometimes if we're honest with ourselves we make up stories of how we remember things, you know we get hooked into this idea of like back in my day I did this and I did this and but it's like we don't

[00:09:36] remember like, fully we like, kind of create these like false narratives around what we think happens. But if I had to recall what I think happened. I was going to school at the time and I was.

[00:09:53] So I don't remember what hours are like with the schedule and look like I know he was like pretty accommodating to my schedule.

[00:10:02] The guys see you who would, who I had apprenticed under. He was like, you know, he was an older guy he was doing a lot of like really fine line like pretty amazing black and gray work. Jerry was like his the only guy he had in the studio at the time, who was also just a gift it you

[00:10:18] know he was just a solid personal tattooer and.

[00:10:23] And black and gray wasn't like necessarily the direction I was like at the time I really liked like American traditional tattooing, but you know he was not you know they were nice enough to let me in at the time I was a kid you know so he looked like a contankerous old man

[00:10:39] and if I met him nowadays that probably would be best friends with the guy you know he probably is a lot like I am now where it's like you're trying to be stern and be a teacher, but as a kid you're like, I don't need to listen to this shit you know it's like you have all that

[00:10:52] like piss and vinegar when you're young. And so he brought me in and they you know they were showing me like it was a very traditional apprenticeship and Z had apprenticed or worked alongside spider web at one time.

[00:11:08] So there was like that lineage of you know history there which was really cool.

[00:11:14] And so it was, you know it was a very traditional thing like I was helping him do like, you know, clean out his mother's house or whatever or I would like to paint his house in trade you know.

[00:11:28] And I remember I for a long time I made jokes about it's weird when you get older you start to like reflect on things different because you realize the value in it like when you're young you're missing a lot of the value and things.

[00:11:39] So, you know it's easy to like loose. You don't have like hindsight or you know your years aren't like informed enough I guess so I mean it's the cry again.

[00:11:52] Right and that's what I felt like so when I did this thing. Exactly what I felt like because I'm painting his house and literally I'm sitting there going, maybe this is the lesson like maybe I'm supposed to learn to fill in like, like, okay if I do this and I'm patient with my

[00:12:07] child, that's how I'm going to learn how to do a solid tattoo like in my head. I was kind of like rationalizing the work to fit the job like he wasn't at all like that wasn't the lesson. It was like you're going to pay off your, you know, your debt to the job like I'm going to give you a craft.

[00:12:23] And you're going to pay me to do it in assisting me, you know.

[00:12:28] But in my head I'm like oh this is the these are the lessons you know so I kept like, you know, you know that's the hindsight wax on wax off and the hindsight view is like it was very wax on wax off, you know because you did learn it all and now you can look back in hindsight and be like, you know, kind of like you said it's kind of a romanticized

[00:12:50] thing too because now you have gratitude because now you know what it what it gave you and like, oh, I'd I'd freakin paint a house all day to do this again.

[00:13:02] Yeah, because it's so it's so funny because so I was doing this apprenticeship with him and he, he was kind of you know he was a he was a little bit tougher around the edges in some areas but he was, you know, it's pretty soft guy for the most part.

[00:13:17] And I really love Jerry like him and you know he kind of just was like this big brother to me but he was like, you know, he was an older guy and he had like this stature to me.

[00:13:27] And so it got to this point where like I was getting overwhelmed like I had like a genuinely had like a nervous breakdown because I had taken on too much, and I couldn't handle the workload I was given and so I, you know, I was one of the early people to like be able to have the

[00:13:43] opportunity with college in my family. And so I didn't, I couldn't like, I knew the investment there and I couldn't give that up.

[00:13:53] And then all the other things like we're, you know, priority, like the 10 to apprenticeship at the time was not priority to me because I didn't have the same investment in it yet.

[00:14:03] So when I had this like breakdown a little I was like, I can't, you know, I went to see and I was like, I can't, I can't do this.

[00:14:11] But it's funny because like at the time he was, you know, he was bummed out and a little irritated and he was like, well it's good, you know, you didn't have what it took anyways, and you probably were never going to make it and then in my head I was like,

[00:14:23] man, I'm gonna freaking get so good one day I'm going to like open up a shop across the street from this guy and call it like $50 less than the dude across the street you know like I was just then I got you know I had that kid anger and stuff but that like helped fuel me to want to like get to get back into it so

[00:14:41] So that fell apart for a minute and then and then I ended up getting a second apprenticeship a few like months later when things calm down for me I found like another collective of guys and did a second apprenticeship after that one.

[00:14:57] Well what's funny is like I ended up calling Z like 10 years ago and just like, or I don't know if I called him or sent him a letter but just thank them like you know for opening up the door for me because without him.

[00:15:09] I never would have been you know I never would have had the career and it was really nice because as my career took off and I was having success and you know making you know, being in the magazines and making flash and stuff like he was buying.

[00:15:22] He would like buy my stuff from me so he was still like really supportive of me so you know meant like a lot to me that he like had been encouraging you know even though we weren't able to work it out there was still that encouragement for me so.

[00:15:36] So did you understand, or do you know or did he ever tell you what he saw in you that made him want to offer you the apprenticeship. You know what I don't, I never even thought to ask that to be honest.

[00:15:53] I honestly have no idea. It just, I think I happen to be in the right place at the right time and the doors opened up. And it's you know it's like I think sometimes.

[00:16:05] You know, even like I didn't go looking to be tattooing to be a tattoo artist but I think sometimes like the, you know, you end up where you're supposed to be. And so it was, I think the door, you know, it opened up for me because that this was the door.

[00:16:22] And so I was like, I was in the right direction. I was probably always supposed to go like, and I just didn't, I didn't know, like I said that we don't have guidance counselors or TV shows to tell us that this was like a thing you could do so I really needed someone to present that opportunity to even make me aware that it was available to me.

[00:16:40] Yeah. I mean you're a good guy. I, I do enjoy you so I'm sure that that was kind of universal. This is this is growth with years of years of self-intercepted. Yeah, a lot of self work.

[00:16:56] I was not always a good guy. You know, we got to go through the motions like your life.

[00:17:01] Well, I mean, but you were going to school to teach elementary school kids. I mean that has to, you know, that shares that shows a significant amount of caring at least in my eyes.

[00:17:11] Yeah, well, I had had some one of my best friends like in high school, I used to spend a lot of time with these two brothers and their family a lot like they were down the road and so I, you know, I was like a latchkey kid and spend a lot of time like, you know, you run solo a lot and stuff.

[00:17:29] So I would go hang out with his family and stuff because they were like, you know, a little bit more family oriented at the time.

[00:17:37] And they had a younger brother who was a little bit like more special needs like in his learning process a little just a little slower and I would work with him and was like very patient in helping him and then his mother was like,

[00:17:54] you really should think about being a teacher like you were very patient with people and I'm like, well not. I do get irritated with people that don't pick things up sometimes but you know, there was something about that like and I also wanted to fill in the blanks for what I was it you know, it's like amazing

[00:18:13] what a good teacher can do to change the trajectory of your life, you know. So I just like that idea like what can you offer somebody else that might it's like one little thing might change their whole life, you know, so I kind of thought like if I got in early, I could have that role and fortunately I had kids so I was able to do it with them, you know, and even though I didn't end up teaching

[00:18:37] it still was able to play a role of his teachers. And you know, oh absolutely legacy can be expressed a lot of different ways if that's you know, especially if you recognize that I think that's really important.

[00:18:52] Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. So your next shop. What did that look like.

[00:18:58] So the next shop I worked at was a place called Turnpike Tattoo in Connecticut also. And then it was like, I think it was like a new shop and so it was right between where my family lived where I was going to school college so I was going home to visit you know to see my family and then kept seeing this shop

[00:19:18] and like, oh I wonder what that's about like I'm going to stop in there one day. And so one day just heading home I decided to pop in. And I brought like some you know some artworks and portfolio stuff because I've been drawing flash and stuff from my first apprenticeship.

[00:19:33] And then I was like hey you know I'm looking for us you know an apprenticeship and I don't know if you guys are interested and you know they took a look at my work and we had some conversations I told them where I was at and whatnot.

[00:19:44] And this place was like different because it was just, it was owned by Mike Nichols who owned Papillon Starbride and Papillon so it was this.

[00:19:56] It was his like secondary shop it was kind of like a sister shop to that. And so there were like two or three young guys there you know probably in their mid 20s or mid 20s or so, maybe late 20s who were kind of running it and they were you know, they were like a little bit more loose in the way they were doing things but they were a little bit

[00:20:24] more relatable to me because they were more kind of closer probably closer culturally to where I was at. And so he you know brought the stuff to Mike and you know it's like you know I'll check we'll see you know and let you know.

[00:20:39] And so then I got the okay to go there and start apprenticing there. And they were like a little bit more like, you know, throw you to the wolves like it was more like, Okay cool now go get your friends, like the other, like would see it was very much more traditional it was like, you know learn

[00:20:55] how to like sharpen a single needle on a wet stone and learning all the like how to break down and set up you know it's like all these like historic elements of tattoo and that people don't do it all now you know you're cleaning the tubes you're doing all the things.

[00:21:09] And then this became more of like, you know, go get your friends like you're going to learn to build a machine you're going to learn to do these things. And so, you know they kind of just took me in and it was a lot like faster paced.

[00:21:26] And then I got tattooed by one of the guys that you know so I was getting tattooed and watching and then they would, you know.

[00:21:34] And then, you know bring down your friends that are wanting to get free tattoos and then once I got through that cycle then it became the like, Okay now you could take like the clients that are, you know, kind of going to get the stuff you want and they'll know you're getting a deal

[00:21:47] and you know so and I started doing that and so. You remember your first tattoo.

[00:21:54] The first tattoo I think I did well besides the first one I did was at Z's. He had me tattoo myself because you know there's the idea of like, you got to know what you're doing to people. Like you should know like what you put people through.

[00:22:09] So the first one I did was it was simple it was just like a little like black spade on the inside of my leg you know just to, you know do it but

[00:22:19] I went there I think the first thing I did might have been like a barbed wire band on a friend of mine or something like that. That's rough. Did it last forever? That was the, you know, that was the thing back then right. Oh I know but

[00:22:37] That was the period of like tribal and barbed wire bands and Tasmanian devils and you know so. Do you know this friend to date or anything like that?

[00:22:50] Yeah, well he was actually the kid who I tattooed my friend Chris. He was the person who kind of had pushed me in the tech we were roommates during college or whatever. Or maybe as I was coming out of college maybe my last year college.

[00:23:06] Like my first roommate I had when I lived when I didn't live like in at the college or whatever. And so he was really like, man this is going to be so cool like you could do whatever you want you know he was just so excited and supported

[00:23:20] and like really like pushed me into tattooing. And so he was saying in a band him and I were in the hardcore kind of band together like a little punk band together, and then he, I got kicked out because I wasn't like a good singer if he was so but they let me do like the album you know like the art for the stuff

[00:23:39] and so he like became like man you should do this will be cool and then yeah and then I did like I think it was the missing piece like a shell Silverstein, his ribs and

[00:23:52] but yeah, so. So yeah and you know I had the friends back then who were encouraging and like kind of like were there for me to do work with and make sure I you know was had an audience at least so I bless those early people man like they're they're amazing risk takers.

[00:24:11] Oh my god. They got some bravado I'm not sure I have I don't.

[00:24:18] I mean it's like a, it's a totally different clientele nowadays to I feel because of all the information that's out now and like back, you know I'm, I've only been doing it 16 years so like but you know back then it was more like I don't care man you whatever like.

[00:24:35] Yeah, yeah, I'm excited let's do this you've got this and I was like, yeah, I am so glad you're so confident.

[00:24:43] It's yeah, but they kept you know they care and they're like receptive to it and you know, and everybody and everybody likes a free tattoo for the most you know it's like, I mean it's crazy if you if you look at the quality of work most tattoo artists have.

[00:24:57] They all were trying to figure it out like what's going to work and stuff and you know I just got tattooed out okay I just thought it was cool and then as they get better they're like well you know, I'll get it fixed one day or get it covered and then it's like.

[00:25:12] They might not I mean I have a lot of friends who have some pretty awful sleeves and but yeah, they wear those pieces with pride so.

[00:25:21] I'd be curious to see some of my very first work I haven't been back to the state where I was so I and we didn't.

[00:25:30] We didn't do portfolios it was a walk in shop and you know you tattooed what they wanted it is usually off the wall, I didn't have any part to play and the design it was just slap it on make it look good and then they go out.

[00:25:44] I think I only custom worked a few things in my first apprenticeship so it would be interesting to see but in the second one I know that they just took a long time. They turn out pretty good, but they took forever when it started again. Oh yeah.

[00:26:02] You know, it's like oh my God. What is this going to end. I remember a mentor coming back and being like you done yet.

[00:26:11] Well that was kind of the thing back then because I feel you know I worked in like a street shop so it was very much like I mean I got to do a lot of custom stuff even really early on.

[00:26:20] But it was very much like, you know, this isn't like all day event like, you know, if these people in and out if you can you know so.

[00:26:31] Which is good because it taught me how to be efficient you know how to be solid and efficient like it's weird because as I got further into my career and I, you know, I felt like I was doddling at times where I'm like, man I would have had this like thing done in like three hours years ago and it probably would have been just a solid

[00:26:47] and good. And it's like I'm overthinking things, you know, because back like when I first started you know you don't really know what you don't know so you're just like I just got to do the work and make sure the lines are clean and make sure this is solid and that's like the

[00:27:01] task at hand. So that very action reaction action reaction zone. Yeah. No, do you remember your first machine. The first machine I probably ran was likely a probably a coastal waters that Papillon made, which was like a Percy waters replica. That was probably the first machine I had.

[00:27:29] And then I always wanted to make sharp like tea dial but I never got one because they were like hard to get back then but I knew that was like the machine back then.

[00:27:40] I did have a dandy Fowler, like g force because it looked like a G and I thought that was cool, you know, whatever. It was like cool. It was like powder coated and that was cool.

[00:27:53] But yeah, I was like, I mean I really got excited about machines because we were building machines back then to you know it was like you would just buy the frame and just build out a machine and stuff and

[00:28:02] I had you know had the luxury of working for you know Mike, that's what they did was you know have been built machines so I was able to go there and get you know an education in that stuff. Awesome.

[00:28:14] Yeah, so I got you know I was really lucky and like a lot of the stuff I was given you know along the way. So, yeah. Well I mean you know it.

[00:28:26] I guess I mean like you said, it was your path right like it was kind of what we were you were supposed to do it you're very honest you know like you had to leave the one because it was too much and then you had to go to the next one so you know had it not called to you from the road.

[00:28:43] She went to go see your parents, you know. Yeah, I shot. It's funny because I really you know I live, I do a lot of living by the fact that you know even though sometimes it's hard to like.

[00:28:59] It gets uncomfortable at times sometimes you're exactly where you're supposed to be, even though you don't see it at that time and then like it takes a little hindsight and then you're like, Oh, like, I was exactly where I needed to be at that time.

[00:29:13] So, I think that's like with tattooing like I you know I great when I was in college. The first like I went and did.

[00:29:21] I did do an internship I went work with this company down in Manhattan, and was doing like learning about color correcting and editing of video and film.

[00:29:31] I would like take a, take a but I lived in New Haven area at the time so I would take a train down to Manhattan I get up at like five in the morning take a train to Manhattan be there at like nine in the morning.

[00:29:43] Get up work till five get on a train and be back at nine at night and I never and you're in a dark room most of the day so I'd never like saw. I wasn't seeing daylight at all but I had been tattooing already at this point.

[00:29:56] And then I got offered a job like this was back when blue raid had just come out and I got offered like a gig at this place that was doing titling for blue rays, like, you know the like, you know, I don't remember phrase but they would have like a title screen so

[00:30:12] And then I was like, I think I'm going to go tattoo instead I think I'm just going to go back to tattooing.

[00:30:19] And like, I got really lucky because within like the first year and a half of tattooing like I had my first feature in a magazine, like everything happened for me real fast and tattooing and I was like, Oh, this is this where I belong like so

[00:30:31] I just kind of sunk into that like I was like, you know, and it's like your kid, you know, I'm like 22 at the time and I'm like, you know, you're making money enough to like afford to have stuff you didn't know you could have before and

[00:30:44] there's like a lifestyle of freedom involved in it and I was like man why am I going to go do this job and then not do this and then when I got out of college I took a job for a newspaper company doing ad sales and I was like, This is not for me at all.

[00:30:58] Like, and then I then I just was a tattoo artist from then on out. So, right on. I, you know, I tried to explore the world outside of tattooing and you know had I stuck with it I probably would have made a really good life of that too but

[00:31:13] But it just wasn't it wasn't where my heart was so Yeah, yeah no totally I am. I understand that a lot and then clearly you're a hustler. You know like you were able to like work your ass off.

[00:31:25] I mean that's one schedule and you and you and when you're like into something you know yeah I'll always that's just part of how my family, like we were raised to have that type of work ethic or whatever I've got you know as I got older I slowed down and I learned to like breathe and stuff but at the time that's how we were kind of

[00:31:45] That's what I was taught is you know you gotta you know you can't be a lazy like that.

[00:31:50] You can't be lazy. So, well those those beginning years are the power years man it's foundational you know now you have a family that you want to spend more time with and you know you want, you know so of course, of course that's that's going to have to even out a little bit.

[00:32:07] But yeah, like in the beginning. I mean I was the same way my girlfriend she was like dude for the first three years of your second apprenticeship. Nobody saw you and I was like yeah man I was working all the time.

[00:32:20] Yeah, and the hard part is is like I loved I mean that's where like kind of my friends were and it was like, you know, the studio would open at like noon, and we would work from like noon till nine back then, and then we would either tattoo each other after like

[00:32:37] Back then I was like friends with other people and shops around town or like around the state so we'd either like meet up and you know you all kind of met around the same bars or whatever we all seem to be part of a very similar scene.

[00:32:50] Or, you know it's like we get together when we draw all night or we tattoo each other so you would do that till like four or five in the morning.

[00:32:57] And then you, you know, go to bed get a few hours of sleep maybe get up and go to like the driving range just to like have some recreation outside the tattoo and then do it all over again and so it was like we were caught that's all we wanted to do was like and you wanted to be good like because we saw what was capable.

[00:33:16] You know I had attached myself to people who were just as hungry as me. So it was like if you want to be the top you have to like show up as often as they do or more.

[00:33:25] So we just showed up, you know so we were just trying to like push it as far as we could.

[00:33:31] And I wasn't you know every apprenticeship I had they were like, ah you suck you're never going to make it so I had to like double down to like prove my worth, whereas like for some people like I had friends where it was like coming really natural to them.

[00:33:46] And it wasn't like a natural thing for me it was a very like I'm labor intensive like I'm going to sink in I'm going to do the work I'm going to learn because like I said I didn't really draw I wasn't like an artist so I had to like learn that also so I wasn't just learning how to tattoo I was learning how to become an artist at the same time.

[00:34:02] So it was like, it was a lot of work. What was the hardest part about tattooing for you that you if you can remember back to it like the struggles back then line work. Yeah, dude line work. Wonky ass lines. Yeah, it's hard.

[00:34:20] So, and then I would see artists I liked and they would have like kind of like some wonky lines to and I'd be like well if you get away with it then you know maybe I'm not so bad but that was like the big that was like the biggest hurdle that took me like three to five years to really get them, you know cleaned up.

[00:34:38] Hello, diary listeners. Sorry for this interruption but I had to do a brief promotional recording slash I don't know advertisement advertisement as you'd say in the US about paradise paradise tattoo gathering. I am aiding this event in shouting it out.

[00:35:02] I'd love to meet some of you in paradise and, you know, get to give you a hug for all of the awesome interactions and, you know, the gratitude I have for your listening time.

[00:35:13] In order to do this and to attend just on its base level, we're going to be meeting in Western Massachusetts at Jiminy Peak Mountain Resort. It's an awesome, awesome venue.

[00:35:26] And what's great about it is that you are kind of trapped on a mountain with all of these truly dope artists and there's only so many places that we can go. So, you're bound to run into people that you probably only dreamed about meeting.

[00:35:41] And on top of that, these artists are going to be doing amazing seminars. I'm going to be giving away a seminar on how to be an awesome apprenticeship prospect. So that's going to be my freebie that I offer. I'm also going to be tattooing this year.

[00:35:58] So whatever, whatever way you're coming at this, you're going to go to www.tattoogathering.com to get your artist weekend pass. If you get it now they're giving away a early bird sweatshirt with it which they're pretty dope.

[00:36:16] I have to say that what I like about the sweatshirt is they're not black. It's not a black hoodie. Whenever you go to tattoo conventions, it's just a sea of black hoodies and it's just, I mean, you know, I guess you can find the tattoo convention.

[00:36:30] But here we're going to be on a mountain and it's going to be hard to avoid the tattoo convention because it's just going to be there. And that's all that's going to be there for the most part.

[00:36:41] And they do have at this time of year, October 27th to or 27th, 24th to the 27th. Pardon me. They do have a Halloween haunted house kind of thing that they set up. So that's pretty cool. But apart from that it's off season. It's beautiful.

[00:36:59] The leaves are shining. It's just a wonderful nature spot for anybody who's interested. And there's a, there's all level of things happening. If you would like to tattoo again, go to www.tattoogathering.com. Fill out your booth application.

[00:37:20] It's it's such a great convention to kind of work because it's intimate. It's it's I mean, no, it's not it's not as busy as those normal tattoo conventions. And yeah, you can get all manner of things.

[00:37:38] If you go to that webpage, find out about Paradise and just know that I will be very happy to meet you in Paradise as this is an event that I try to make every time it happens. All right, listeners back to our podcast.

[00:37:56] With a lot of focus on like trying to make sure they were clean and I'm still working on it.

[00:38:01] Yeah, well it's funny because as I got older, you know, I, I'm like, I just hit 50 this year and I'm like, I'm honestly putting myself through a second apprenticeship because what happens like so I'm trying to surround myself with friends who were like in specific areas of tattoo and I'm sitting down with them.

[00:38:21] And I'm all like, I'm redoing the work now at the like, at late stage tattooing because what happens is you find like lazy points that you fall into you get into these like little weird comfort zones and you allow like, I mean like it's my art nobody will know the difference of that or you know like

[00:38:41] like excuses of like accepting your flaws and, and I kind of was doing that with my work you know if we're honest with ourselves you know in order to grow you have to be honest right so yeah.

[00:38:54] I was, you know I had these like weaknesses that I was like compensating for in other ways and I did a lot of large scale work so you know I when you're doing like large sleeves projects you can like kind of just rush in a line, come back and clean

[00:39:09] everything up at the end, you know if it's not solid I'm going to clean it up don't worry it's fine I'll clean it all up at the end.

[00:39:16] But then if you have to do like a banger tattoo, like a something small, it's like there's all these weak points because you weren't getting it right the first time in the big project so I had allowed myself to be like,

[00:39:29] I think it's a continuation piece, you know, and then I was kind of not making a solid first pass tattoo I was making a like a decent first pass with the knowledge that the second passes when everything comes together.

[00:39:45] And then when I was in a position where I was like, oh I got to do like first one that's all I get because I'm on the road and I'm never going to see this person again I was like, Oh there's like, there's some areas I really need to start focusing on that I've let go over the years.

[00:40:00] I really want to like get a reminder of things that I knew when I first started, because when you first start and you're only doing tattoos this big there's way less room for error.

[00:40:12] And, you know, so I had to get back to like honing those technical skills again that I kind of let go. So, now, do you think that because for me when I, when I got into I completely identify with all of that.

[00:40:27] I was like, I'm not going to be doing that for the second time tattooing my second apprenticeship I, I had come out of art school and did a lot of painting. And so, yeah, my conflict was, you know, laying in lines as a foundational thing for what in my mind made sense to keep it

[00:40:48] and build it slowly and so it was less of a, I mean I guess it was a compensation but it made sense to me to do that.

[00:40:56] Rather than to go in hard and dark and all that stuff which I agree with you in this later stage of my career.

[00:41:05] I don't want to be good at all of it you know like I want to be able to take on anything. And I don't want to compensate for those points that I just did because I rolled into what I was just good at and I could just do.

[00:41:18] I want to hone certain things because I feel like that's, I don't know, like, what could it hurt, you know, like being better at something giving it more time giving it more tension, you know, like a caring more. Like, that's great.

[00:41:34] Well, and I don't know if it's not even not, you know, like you said you were doing painting and I think that's what happened to me I started painting tattoos. I was no longer doing tattoos I was doing paintings and the skin, which is a full different process

[00:41:47] it's a reverse process so yeah you work like I would work mid tones out so I would do almost all my mid tones in, then I would come in at the end and do my, my shadows line working highlights and every you know build out.

[00:42:00] And that which is great for like continuation pieces because the beauty is with that with those techniques is that you're allowing the foundation to settle in the skin, giving it time to heal see how that actually works on the body and then coming back in and do

[00:42:16] a secondary coat which is like putting a second coat on a wall like it's definitely going to be more solid. Yeah, so there is like a benefit to it there but if you're trying to do just like a convention piece where you only have one shot with a person.

[00:42:30] It's not like a practical application anymore so that's what I'd like now it's funny because I just went and bought like like watercolors again you know again and I bought some color pencils and I'm like going back to like this year I decided to like slow down

[00:42:45] on the painting I'm actually taking a break from my oil painting and focusing my time back in drawing these other fund and these other fundamental techniques because you know I always say like painting will make you a better painter.

[00:43:02] It'll make you a better artist but it's not going to necessarily make you a better tattoo or but tattooing makes you a better tattoo or, but the foundational skills of like using a micron to do line work every day as opposed to, you know, letting the iPad snap your line into place or like these tools that

[00:43:21] overcompensate for us like when you're drawing daily and there's you can't erase. You have to build a confidence and so I feel like I had that confidence more back when I was using those skillsets frequently.

[00:43:34] And then as I was like started to paint, I didn't have to have that same confidence because I could allow I'm like well I'll just come in and adjust it over time.

[00:43:43] And so now I'm going back to the idea, especially being like someone who teaches, you know, and is trying to pass this stuff down to the to these, you know, next generations of tattooers if we're going to hand down the tools like I'm a firm believer and you have to live by the lessons.

[00:44:00] So if you're going to share these things you have to live that life like you can't just know I mean I teach things to people that are definitely like.

[00:44:11] This is definitely a lesson of do as I say not as I did, because what I did did not work and it fucked up my life and I need you to have this lesson because I didn't.

[00:44:21] Right. And so this isn't like a lesson of like learn from my success this is a learn from my failure moment. And some people like we'll say oh you know you got to only listen to people that are living a life and I firmly believe like sometimes you got to listen to where

[00:44:36] I went wrong, so that you don't follow that path. And so like I, you know I'm always big on like have a home base and then travel from a home base like I didn't do that I bounced around to all my whole career.

[00:44:48] And now it's like, where would my career been had I just stayed in a place where people knew how to find me, as opposed to like where is it now when people are like dude I stopped looking for him because he's always gone, you know, somewhere

[00:45:00] like that's like a real thing that people need to be aware of so you know there's those lessons and then there's the other ones when we're talking about our or when we're talking about certain things it's like, this is what we know works.

[00:45:13] I'm going to show you how it works. And as a person who's like 50 going on this second stage of like I have the same passion and the same, like hunger to be like, it's not, it's not like my ideas of what I want a tattooing of change I'm not chasing

[00:45:28] like that necessarily the fame that I wanted. It's not the ego fame that I wanted when I was a kid. Now, but I am chasing the idea of being taken seriously so that I can continue to teach and people you know, can trust the words I'm saying because

[00:45:46] there's something to that if you're not doing the work if you're not showing up as a tattooer, people stop listening to you because they're like, yeah that's cool you did it 30 years ago we don't care what are you doing now.

[00:45:57] So, now I and now that I also I worked with a lot of late stage tattooers where they've lost a lot of faith in themselves and where their direction in life is and they're going through these moments of like questioning themselves

[00:46:14] because the world of tattooing has evolved that I feel like I, if I can set a standard or show like hey it can be done, like watch this, like we're going to do it you know, and then they can see that it can be done, you know, like if you can have like a whatever that guy that did played like Iron Man, always for Robert Downey

[00:46:34] Yeah, like if you can have like a Robert Downey junior moment as a tattoo artist where like yeah you disappear for a while you know you maybe weren't where you once were and then come back.

[00:46:45] It allows other people to feel that they have that within them you know so there's this idea that it, you know, that we have to lead by example also like we have to walk the walk and show up and do the work that we're you know telling these people to do and

[00:47:01] so that's that almost matters more to me now is being like not just teaching but like living by example like you don't have to listen to what I'm saying just watch what I do you know and that should it should they should if I'm doing things right be in harmony with each other.

[00:47:18] Right. One, you're so right because you know it, you can you can let things be the story or you can make the story. Like, yeah that's that's really what it comes down to. If you give your power away.

[00:47:34] Then, then that's the choice you're making, but you have a lot of power. We have a lot yeah. Yeah. And I find that. You know it's like you're talking about like reinvesting going back to move forward is really, really important.

[00:47:53] And just kind of re immersing immersing yourself in those fundamental skills and just like drilling yourself and all of those things that it does so much mental work to because nobody can take that away from you.

[00:48:09] Like, you know they like you said, what have you done lately be like, Oh, let me show you. Yeah. Like, I might not be showing you on the regular there's there's all this shit that I've been doing. Here's the stuff yeah.

[00:48:25] And it's funny because you know it's like we've become like a definitely a world where we don't want to hurt people's feelings and that's like, and I'm glad we live in that world and all but ageism has become like the most acceptable

[00:48:40] right now where like all the older people are like fuck these young kids and all the young people are like fuck these old people and it's like, dude, like we have so much.

[00:48:50] Yeah, what, and we have so much to learn from each other because if you're an older person in tattooing. There's a lot of innovation that like all almost all innovation happens in youth, like that's just, you know all the stuff that that like people my age did was happening

[00:49:07] a long time ago you know it's like we were doing, you're the most innovative I think in your early years then you kind of work in the mastery of after that or whatever, but a lot there's a lot of innovation and youth and then the old people have hindsight so when

[00:49:23] people are like, ah man that fuck it don't worry my tattoos are going to hold up and then we're like now we've seen what 30 years can do to the tattoo so it's we don't want to put it down we tried it like and it's right and you're

[00:49:34] like, yeah, we have more skills now and it's like yeah but you still have the same limitations like pigment is still light fast and it's still under the skin skin is still skin.

[00:49:44] And it's like, so it's like this idea we have to bridge those gaps where like we're willing to work together to like grow as a community, you know it's like we're working together to be like to uplift all you know you lift one another

[00:49:59] and then we're like, yeah, we're working together to be like a whole community like all of tattooing looks better that way and so you know I like being around like the younger generations because they I get hungry again and you know like it it reminds me of where I was and I'm like, you know I want to

[00:50:14] I'm like, you know, I want to work with my friends and there's some technology that I'm like hard to latch on to I don't use the iPad, you know as much as some people and there's some I don't really I like, I went back to like more of a left you know I was using the pen for a bit and I didn't really love it so I went to back to like a more traditional

[00:50:32] and but those just are the tools that work for me it's not like I'm not going to knock what tools work for people I just there's other things that I like for myself so

[00:50:41] but there's a lot of that and the beauty is like as you get older that people forget because they sit in their rooms and they complain about these kids today, you know like

[00:50:50] it's a lot of competition out there and these kids were so lucky they started with that and you're like, dude, you have 20 years of knowledge on this apprentice. Why are they tattooing circles around you like, or myself like, you know, like it's easy to sit back and be like,

[00:51:06] you know, home like this is awful what was me and it's like I have I have all this knowledge and I can't progress at all. And these kids have no knowledge and they're able to like be here like what what am I doing like that's a me problem.

[00:51:22] That's not a them problem that's on me and it's like if I'm going to hold myself accountable, then I have to show up and I have to be willing to do the work again.

[00:51:31] Or maybe it's time to not do this anymore maybe it's time to you know have a different lifestyle because if I'm not willing to put in the work and I can't be mad at the people that are like, right, you know,

[00:51:44] I do think that there's a, I think what we have to add to is a uniqueness to the work we do. And that was something I caught one of your posts that was really good is that like, you know, one thing that I've seen that if I were to complain about it.

[00:52:04] I do find a lot of similar themes today that everybody is doing. And it's like a copy of a copy of a copy and they're well done, they're very well done, but it's all the same stuff. Like, come on man like figure out how to make it.

[00:52:24] You know, why do you can, you can do anything on people man like anything like stretch the boundaries like push a little bit.

[00:52:32] You know, like you said you were able to I mean I was able to in my first apprenticeship design a lot of stuff if I had wanted to I didn't think it was possible nobody offered it to me they were just like oh we have flash you know I do it do that.

[00:52:46] This is this is what you do.

[00:52:49] But like, when I when I started like understanding I could put myself into it and I could draw things and I can make it cool that was one of the things that my, my mentor in my second round said do he was like,

[00:53:03] here's this idea, make it cool. Like, you would just give me like a thing like this is all been done this way. Do it a different way. I want you to do this bullshit and take the cheese out.

[00:53:18] And I was like, that's awesome like that's a really cool thing and I, and I heard that one of your posts that it was like yeah, you know like it shouldn't be like a bunch of things that have already been done just slam together, you know, and I do think

[00:53:33] that's a good idea. Go ahead, no, let's go ahead. No I want to hear what you're.

[00:53:40] Oh, I was just going to say that I think a lot of it is kind of feeding that commercial brain. You know like I think it's it's feeding the client more than the art and that's what this profession really has the capability of doing is because you meet with a person.

[00:53:58] You can elevate them, you can show them what their personal brand can be and and really open them open them up to a whole world of imagery styles possibilities I mean a tattoo doesn't have to be in reality.

[00:54:16] It doesn't have to be anything. And, and it's, you know you're designing for something that's not a flat surface isn't, you know, 2d you can, you can make it whatever you want, and you can make it whatever they want.

[00:54:29] So stretch their, their minds a bit and pull them into your world and help elevate them. And that's what's really cool, you know like what you when you can do that with another person and it's not just like elevator music or live laugh love or birds feathers.

[00:54:47] And that's the problem but the other thing is that we, you know, the clients are going to get blamed a lot for people's artists inability to be unique, because they want to mimic something they see to show like look at what I did just like that person.

[00:55:03] So in my seminar one of the first slides I share you ever see the movie multiplicity with with a man what's his name now, the guy who played Batman Michael. Yeah.

[00:55:15] And there's like a saying and it's like the copy of the copies never is clear. And like that's where we're at you have people copying a copy of a copy they have not a not one original iota, like a thought at all like they only know how to mimic something.

[00:55:33] Like a true artist create have vision, you know, which is why what we see like the people that you that they're emulating were able to create those styles because they had vision.

[00:55:45] The people that follow those styles lack vision, they have no vision. And I think that's like why I was really lucky coming up in the 90s is like everybody wanted to be unique.

[00:55:56] Like back then like there was this individuality that was going around. It was like a sense of individuality so everybody was really flexing their wings they wanted to see what they could do, and they were really trying to have a voice that separated themselves from the crowd.

[00:56:11] You know that's like culture like I want to be different or whatever like, or what tattoo culture was back then to me at least.

[00:56:18] Now it's like this idea of I want to be different just like everybody else, like, and so they are like all just sheep following along in this like clean. This is safe.

[00:56:32] I know people like this I know they like the neo tread head with the thing and you know it's I've seen this girl space it's got it.

[00:56:42] I love the technique I love the style but I've seen so much of the imagery like the technique technically it's a great concept to tattoo approach like the separation of values though like, it's a very good technical approach to tattoo and but the

[00:56:57] the imagery becomes so like, unique that it that it ruins it and it's like I understood it in things like traditional tattoo but even traditional tattooing you can have a voice in.

[00:57:09] And I had like a client someone when I posted that article about that someone had made this like well is it there's something to this idea that we you know follow the guidelines and the rules and I said, yeah, but I want to see things like traditional Japanese done by someone

[00:57:25] like Jesse and Mike Dorsey where I can hear both their voices in a style I know has foundational rules like we have two people that were able to stand out, specifically separate.

[00:57:38] And yet they are doing a similar style of work using similar guidelines to what the rules of that style are and I think that can be done in realism and I think that can be done in neo traditional tattooing or in any of these

[00:57:54] venues. If people put their goddamn phones away for a minute and drew from their imaginations and not regurgitated material that's been done over and over and over again.

[00:58:04] And it's like, and a lot of it comes down to like pick up a sketchbook like just get back to drawing from your imagination and try and draw without looking at what somebody's done from already or like look at a picture, a photograph of something like a reference

[00:58:19] material photograph and draw what you would create from that and stop looking at somebody's photo and then being like I'm going to draw the same, you know, head with the snake that like I like that guy snakes I'm going to steal their snake, and I'm going to steal that head.

[00:58:34] And now I'm going to put those two together and I'm going to pretend it's mine.

[00:58:38] And it's original. And it's not original, it's just not and that and people can tell immediately because then they're like yeah that's you know like cool tattoo like next, like next. Yeah, and you see that when you like walk through conventions now I can walk through like an aisle and every once in a while

[00:58:54] like someone where you're like that person's gonna they've separated themselves from the herd like they're going to go places you know. And if we look at like the people who are really kind of thriving, they're usually the people that did that you know you get guys like Dave

[00:59:08] and Nick who's like has a standout style and he's got a voice all his own. And it's, you know, like it's so refreshing because you're like, Okay, finally, like something fresh like another solid person just very yeah, yeah, great guy. Yeah, but you look at like, you know, even if we looked at

[00:59:26] like if you wanted to take it outside of tattooing if you look at someone like Leigh and Decker or Norman Rockwell, and they were both like illustrators during the same period and they still covered very similar topics.

[00:59:40] They had wildly different approaches to their styles and you can look at them and be like oh I know that they could use the same exact reference. And you would be like, Oh, they both have their own voice.

[00:59:52] And that's what art should be like it should be like who wants to be the crappy cover band, like who wants to be like the worst karaoke singer like yeah I'm singing their song but I'm not doing a great job like, yeah, like why not record your own album of fresh material

[01:00:08] and then, you know, take some maybe add a song that people have heard before so you can build that audience but like as you build it start to incorporate your own voice into it, you know. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, and I

[01:00:24] know it's a good tangent because you know what I would the only thing I could add is is that to. It's very easy to blame your client like you had said, and get off with the assertion that they're not creative. Yes, people are.

[01:00:44] Most people have wild dreams about things but like you said they only, they only can envision what they've seen.

[01:00:53] So what you have to do is kind of go well I want to make something for you that's that's all its own, you know, like that has never been seen before it's going to be wild. We're going to do this together.

[01:01:05] Let's pull this idea that you have a part and all its many different ways and look at it from different angles and find where you can add yourself to that and turn that up and and get them excited about it because that too has a legacy of it, because as when they get the tattoo

[01:01:26] and and it's, it is like that and you've gone through that kind of journey with them. They have so much to talk about about their experience because it's not just the tattoo at that point it's then the audience and you don't walk around with a placard,

[01:01:41] you know, attached to like it was this artist and it was done at this time and you know this was the message.

[01:01:49] No, your client is the message that's the person that speaks for it and I've met a lot of people who have gotten really solid great tattoos and I like he was a dick.

[01:01:59] I like I hated it. I wish it was this you know it's not what I wanted and I'm like how did this even happen dude, like I don't even know in what world this happened.

[01:02:10] But you know it's really a shame when as a viewer of a tattoo you're looking at it you're like that's awesome and then when you talk to the person and they got very limited things to say are they like yeah you know, you know something I did.

[01:02:24] They're blase about it. So you know you have, you have that perspective that I wish people looked a little bit more to is that like your portfolio is not just the tattoo itself it's what people have to say about you when you're not in the room and your service.

[01:02:43] And I think that's really important and it shows when you are a person who dedicates yourself to your craft and continually drills and all that stuff like my clients have always been really happy when they know I'm doing something or traveling or going somewhere, you know like

[01:02:59] learning something like what did you learn like they love it books I've read you know like when we geek out about all that stuff. It's good stuff. That's a good tangent.

[01:03:11] And that's the secondary, you know, I saw somebody post something about like, but essentially they had made this comment and it was, you know what can I learn from a tattoo artist who, if I don't even like the look of the tattoos they do.

[01:03:28] I thought that was such a limited perspective on tattooing because, you know, one if they've got, I think they said like the person had 15 years of experience but what could I learn if I don't like the style and I'm like man well they've got 15 years of hindsight so probably a lot like 15 years of human

[01:03:44] experience 15 years of like engaging with clientele 15 years of hardship 15 years of enduring the ups and downs that you know there's probably a plethora of information you can probably gain from that person. If they're not a dick you know but

[01:03:59] the thing that I've realized now is that there's a there's a definitely a group of people that only believe tattooing is just the art that it is just about the picture they make, they'd like disqualified the human, you know, there was somebody who I was hanging out with.

[01:04:15] Not too long ago who had made this like comment and I was like, you're right on but he was like I am so sick of people calling their clients canvases you know it's like, it's a human being and they were totally right you're right it is exactly what they are they're human beings and they're having a human

[01:04:30] experience and they've invited you along for their journey they've incorporated you in that process to get a piece of like something that's on them for life like you might as well be a lover you're making that important impact on them because you're

[01:04:43] leaving you know like when these people leave these bad taste in their mouths it's like that's cool because you just scarred them with the bad experience. Like they're literally scarred with a terrible experience because you were a shitty human being.

[01:04:54] Yeah, and you open them up I mean it's borderline torture to like do this and then you're laying in this emotional like you said this emotional scar.

[01:05:03] And yeah man like it's vulnerable like we open they open up to us like they're in there you know very much like therapy so it's like why are we not treating it I'm a dignity and respect that they deserve. Yeah, as a vulnerable human.

[01:05:18] Yes, I call them collectors on the you know the aftermath of it. And when you look at it that way it's like you know you only have so much wall space, you know body space, and to be a person that that they're collecting that they find that much value in to put on their body

[01:05:37] and to wear is like wow man like that's awesome. Like I'm super honored.

[01:05:43] And I make a point of telling people that for sure. And you know that's a, that's something I see about your work too there's so much new unique uniqueness so I do have a question like when did new school kind of coming because

[01:05:57] you're kind of like one of the founding voices in that movement right.

[01:06:03] I'm probably I'm not like founding. I think I'm probably what would be considered like second generation new school, because there were people who you know who had inspired me in that direction so you know like when I had first gotten in.

[01:06:19] You know you had Adrian Lee had a shop was called new school like yeah and so I feel like I feel like the term maybe like had kind of caught like roots on the West Coast, like that term.

[01:06:34] I'm not even sure where the where the lineage of the term terminology came from but I would probably say it was like West Coast ish and you had like people a grime and, and, you know there was a lot of West Coast artists were being really innovative in the techniques they were doing.

[01:06:49] So I had like a different perspective on new school, like you know I would probably consider john clue at the time was new school he was bringing in graffiti culture and you know it was like people to me like new school were artists who were bringing in voices from like outside tattooing so right now that's the problem I see in

[01:07:06] right now. Everybody's drinking from the well of tattooing, and there's not a lot of outside people bringing in as much from the outside you have some of it happening with like painterly tattooing and stuff but a lot of like what's happening in tattooing is people

[01:07:21] are bringing in from the same well. So, with new school the innovations were coming in from like, you know, graffiti culture was coming in from low brow art culture, you know what became like pops, you know pops realism

[01:07:37] was coming in from, you know, skateboard culture. You know people like Mark riding and Todd shore were huge like you know influences, influences for me this guy artist Joe Soren was a massive influence who was also a painter.

[01:07:54] And then from, you know, skateboard culture and graffiti, you know like the art front that was on skateboards was seen and hot rod culture.

[01:08:04] Which would have been like, yeah, which would have been like back then that was like what Neo, you know traditional probably was back then was more like low rider culture coming or like hot rod culture coming in was like what Neo traditional you guys like Dave,

[01:08:17] you know, like Bill Vinnie and stuff we're doing stuff like that. And so I just was seeing like these innovative artists that were pulling in from different influences.

[01:08:28] And then I was lucky enough, you know to work with like Eric Merrill from dark side who was friends with Joe Capianco and they were doing that like East Coast airbrushed out it was like very like, you had East Coast Midwest, and you had like Jeff's

[01:08:43] John Clue, you know, Kim sigh were kind of doing that wasn't necessarily new school but it was like this illustrative branch of tattooing.

[01:08:52] And then you had like the West Coast, which was like a very like almost more influenced by traditional tattooing, but like was like almost a traditional and graffiti culture were being mixed.

[01:09:02] And then you had like the East Coast which was like, you know, Corey Krueger at the time was doing like amazing art and stuff so you had these guys that were doing, you know what was Mario Bartheven was like doing the white outline on stuff and heavy bold outlines.

[01:09:17] So you had like all these different like influences that were like exploring what could you know because at the time it was like fine line black and gray and traditional tattooing and Japanese tattooing.

[01:09:29] And then you had like guys like Stefan Schaudt is a or whatever and Philip Lou and the European guys that were really exploring what could be done with the body, but in, you know, the US it seemed like we were getting these certain influences that were really exploring the possibilities of artistic tattooing.

[01:09:45] That's like when I decided I wanted to be an artist it was like seeing those guys and I was like I want to do that like I want these guys are doing.

[01:09:54] So I had like, I started in the East Coast and I was like lucky enough to work with guys like dark dark side tattoo in Connecticut at the time was really innovative. With what was happening back in the early, you know mid 90s or whatever.

[01:10:10] And then when I went to the Midwest I like ended up, you know be friending Jimmy Litwalk and Jimmy and I like had a pretty good bond and him and I were working together clean rock one at the time.

[01:10:21] So you had these like guys who were like creating something different and new in that time period and so you know I latched into that culture because I like the innovation of it like I really liked.

[01:10:36] Like to me I always describe like new school became a thing because it got really like no you know like oh it's a twisted blender with flames or whatever you know and then it became and then it went through cycles of growth and it became like, you know like Jesse Smith and then Kelly Doty and

[01:10:51] a guy called Scotty monster and you know, maybe yeah to me be and and then Victor chill and so there was like this evolution of Tony Siobarro who was East Coast also.

[01:11:06] And I apologize if I'm mispronouncing names I'm not really good with remembering people's names pronunciation but I think. I mean, I'm same. Yeah. But you had these people who were doing all these things, and it was really an exciting time.

[01:11:23] I mean, it's exciting now because there's a lot. It just is so overwhelming right now. Back then, it was a little less overwhelming because you felt like you could have a foot in the game and play along if you put in the work.

[01:11:36] And to me, I would have always defined new school as innovative tattooing. And then I started transitioning over to the term illustrative tattooing because I just thought it fit like the type of work I was doing because I stopped. I wasn't like, my cartoons were starting to evolve.

[01:11:54] Like at first it was real cartoonish and then they started evolving into more like a hybrid of fine art and cartoon. And I was like, I don't know where I'm at because I'm no longer this cartoonish, but I'm not here. Like it was hard because I felt like

[01:12:09] I no longer had an identity in tattooing. So I was like, it's just illustrative tattooing. That's where I'm at with it. But yeah, so I played a role. I know that there was influence I had on artists and it's really neat because I meet people now.

[01:12:29] And new school, it bums me up because new school got a real shit rep. I really fucking sometimes hated the guys on the tattoo TV thing, the like those like judges that they originally had because they kept bagging like people like Jesse Smith

[01:12:44] and Jimmy Little Walker or whatever and call it a one trick ponies. And it was like, dude, you guys have no one you have no idea how like as a as an artist who does the type of work I do,

[01:12:56] I don't have, there's no photo that I'm working from. So I don't have the like capacity or luxury of like realism where I have something I get to work from. I don't have the luxury of having it simplified down to like three colors or to just values alone.

[01:13:13] Like I have to create depth, I have to create color palettes. I have to create the, you know, like And the drama, the angles of like storytelling, yeah. And so there's so many elements and then they get like shit on like, oh yeah, but it's just cartoon.

[01:13:28] And you're like, yeah, but there's so many elements that go into creating this cartoon that it's like, I had to learn a lot to be able to put all those puzzle pieces together. And then it gets dogged a bunch and it's really frustrating.

[01:13:40] What's even more frustrating is when you meet people who like people like Stefano Alcantara who like will say new school played a role in his career even though he's a black and gray artist or like there's these artists who I'm friends with

[01:13:53] that are in very, you look massively different fields now in their career, but they had used new school as a stepping stone because it was the explorative process of being an artist. Like you could be an explorer as an artist and sometimes it's super upsetting to me

[01:14:08] because I'm like, it does not get the respect that ever deserved in its impact in tattooing. Like color realism would not exist today if it wasn't for what new school was doing with color palettes back in those days. Like, and I know that cause I know the guys

[01:14:24] who like were the foundation of those, color realism tattooing. So it's like, there's these things that people like have no idea of the impact that that type of work had and the artist involved in it had on the world of tattooing.

[01:14:41] And it's like, I don't, it's not necessarily the credit for me but the credit of that style should be remembered as impactful in tattooing. It shouldn't be like let to be like, left out in the dark, you know, when it made massive changes like calligraphy lines

[01:15:02] and you know, or even like, you see that with biomech. Like the stuff that guy did that innovated tattooing and changed the direction of tattooing that people like me were able to utilize. Like he gave me a set of tools that were like I didn't know where possible.

[01:15:17] And so it's always a shame to watch that like those styles often don't get the same respect as the ones that use the tools that those styles created. I agree. Yeah, and you know, this is, I guess I don't know if it's a mini segue

[01:15:34] but you know, when you go to art school they always encourage you to draw from reference and things like that. And that's good because you want to get really good at your hand eye coordination, you know, looking up,

[01:15:50] you know, and having your hand move as your eyes see things and connecting with what's there and kind of replicating things. But then when you move those things, as you said I have found when I try to do things out of my brain

[01:16:03] they come out very new school-esque. Like it's cartoony because you know, it's what your brain kind of is able to memory bank without the reference, which is really cool because it's like this heightened, I don't know. It's a fun thing to play with.

[01:16:23] I've done it a few times where I'm like I'm not gonna do any reference. I'm just gonna use whatever thing is in my head from like the countless times I've drilled doing this thing. Let's see if I can just do it.

[01:16:36] And it does have like a very new school-ish kind of feel to it, which I like, you know, like I really like. I've never leaned into it for my style but I've noticed that like my brain, that's how my brain is able to hold onto images

[01:16:53] and what's able to come through when I do things like that. And you know, once you know the foundational principles of art and you're like, oh, well let's put a light source on this, let's see, you know,

[01:17:05] what kind of colors am I gonna do and things like that. Then it, like you said, it's very experimental. It's fun, it's investigative and it's a really neat challenge in how you can, you know, really sculpt something that wasn't there and that like, you know,

[01:17:23] you're using these core principles even just in art. You know, perspective, you know, color, all of it. Contrast. It's all of it, yeah. It requires all the tools. All of it. And a unique vision. And that's the like, I tend to think

[01:17:40] that's what I think, if you ever wanna know what your style is, stop looking at reference for a minute and draw. And you'll find out what your real voice is because everything else is you trying to fit into a thing that you wanna pursue,

[01:17:56] but it's not necessarily your natural singing voice, you know, it's kind of like a little bit like Taylor Swift doing pop, you know, it's like her natural voice might have been way more country, but she flayed into the area that she knew was a little bit more marketable.

[01:18:11] Yes, yes. This is really a statement. Which is the weirdest thing for me to say, but. It just came to my mind because one of my favorite C.S. Lewis books is The Great Divorce and there's this part with this really kind of egomaniacal.

[01:18:26] The whole premise of the book is after you die and there's like this limbo between determining where your soul's gonna go. And so there's people who are souls that come to collect you and try to get you to come to heaven with them. But, you know, this landscape

[01:18:43] that you're exploring with the main character, you're basically seeing all the attachments that people have made in their lives and not willing to let go of. And this one artist, he's like, ah, you know, this is so beautiful here.

[01:18:58] I wish I had my paints, I would paint it. And the person coming to collect them was like, oh, well, there's no need for that here. You know, everybody, you know, the thing about art is that it's meant to remind people of beauty

[01:19:13] and nobody needs to be reminded here. Just come, come see how awesome it is and come with me and the soul can't let go of it. He's like, you know, I have value in this. This is how I have value. It's like, you know, showing people what's beautiful.

[01:19:31] I determine what's beautiful. And the soul's like, no dude. No, you don't. It is beautiful. It's already beautiful. You're just attached so much to like your part to play in this so you're not willing to let go and just see what's there behind the veil

[01:19:50] that you're completely discounting just because you wanna hold onto this one thing or that you wanna, I don't know. I don't know. It's a really cool, yeah. I'm gonna have to check that out. It's called The Great Divorce. What do you say? Yeah, it's a great read.

[01:20:05] I like C.S. Lewis' writing so I've been with him. Yeah, it's one of my favorites of his. It was one I didn't expect to love so much, honestly. And it's a shorter read, like it's not long. So it's a really good one.

[01:20:18] And it's one of the lesser, I think red ones, but it's definitely one of my favorites. Yeah, I'm gonna have to look into that. That sounds good. It's funny that attachment thing because I think that's also the part white as our older artists we have struggled growing

[01:20:31] as we get attached to this history of what we think worked for us then. Like it was really hard for me because I got known for doing these creepy kid things. Like that's what built my career. And I had to like, I wanted to divorce myself

[01:20:48] from them for a minute because I wanted to evolve as an artist. So I was like, I think I'm gonna just go to landscapes. And so I had to let them go. I had to like walk away from them. And it's hard because the other thing,

[01:21:01] like when you're trying to be an explorative artist, like I always consider myself very explorative artist even though I'll sometimes come back to what, I know is a little bit marketable or it's like my safety net as an artist

[01:21:13] or it's just something I'm attracted to at the moment. But you have to go through ugly phases in order to like hit the pretty phase. And like you could try a million things and they may never hit with people.

[01:21:26] Like I have a lot of pieces that I've done that I'm really like proud of because I knew what I put into it. And it just did not work with the audience. They did not bite, they did not care. They get just as equally attached to,

[01:21:40] it's like everybody wants to hear that fucking 80 bands one hit song and they don't wanna let them grow into a new band ever. And so sometimes it's hard, we're very limited as artists we sometimes, we become like prostitutes of art sometimes

[01:21:55] where we're selling ourselves to make a living. And sometimes that means sacrificing what we really, where our heart is and not creating from a place of like love. And that is like, that's what got me into painting is because tattooing to me was always my job.

[01:22:13] Like I'm a tattoo artist because I'm of service to others and my paintings were of service to me. Like I'm gonna paint where my heart is but I'm gonna create tattoos for the client so that they are, so their heart is full.

[01:22:28] So I never was like, it's part of the hard part is you almost have to go through like an ego death as a tattoo artist sometimes to be that type of person because there's that idea of like my art is way more important than the person wearing it.

[01:22:43] And so I've had, as I've gotten older I wanna know that's definitely come, are we getting time checked? No, no, no, somebody was revving their engine and I was like, is it picking up? Cause that was loud. That was unnecessary, sorry. Yeah, no problem.

[01:23:00] We can keep going till wherever. Into the wee hours. I thought it was a Charlie Brown parent. Like, I thought it was a brown parent. Not at all. So funny. That's where I decided it was so funny because that was like halfway through our recording.

[01:23:18] Right when that whole rev of engine was very divinely intervened. But there was no time cut off. We actually went on for another hour and a half pretty much. So please come back next week to join us for the rest of Gunner's diary entry. He's amazing.

[01:23:40] And just so everyone knows and keep in mind he is doing a seminar on 27 tips, 27 tips that he's culminated over his 27 years in tattooing. And they range as he said, I don't know if, you know, we went over that specifically but just to reiterate it.

[01:24:04] It's everything down to artist block, you know how to stay motivated, different things that you might run into over the years and years and years that you might have to reinvent yourself which calls to the reinventing of the tattoo which is why it's such a great name.

[01:24:26] But now I like 27 as the name. I hope he keeps it. I do think that there's something kind of funny about you know, a lot of creatives don't make it past the age of 27. I feel very certain that Gunner will

[01:24:42] that this is just a moment that he's recollecting and this will have its own testimony for everyone as they experience their journey, their lives as tattoo artists. That's what it's all about, right? Like collecting people's stories at all levels of their development

[01:25:00] and finding out that we're just human, right? And we're all going through this and if we're open, honest, caring, collaborative, all of that, we can uplift each other and we can do a lot of cool things together. And if nothing else in my life,

[01:25:19] I wanna do cool things with cool people. So in the interest of that, thank you listeners. Thank you Gunner. Come back next week for the conclusion of this diary entry. It's awesome. Gunner's awesome. Try to make it out to Paradise Tattoo Gathering.

[01:25:36] This October, it's the 24th through the 27th on Jiminy Peak Mountain Resort. It's an incredible resort, right when all the leaves are changing. It's phenomenal. You're trapped on a mountain, nothing else, but to completely saturate yourself with growth, education, tattooing, tattooers, all of it.

[01:26:02] It is just such a great time and it's beautiful. It has that East Coast change of the season, vibe to it, it's in nature. I mean, you're just gonna love it. So if you would like to meet any of these people,

[01:26:20] if you hope to meet me, that's a great place to go and check it all out, we're all gonna be there and it's a great event. I can't shout it out enough. But everyone have a powerful, powerful week. I love you all. Blessings. I'll check you next week.

[01:26:37] Bye. Thanks for listening. You can find the apprenticeship diaries on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Our IG is the underscore apprenticeship underscore diaries. If you would like to offer constructive criticism or an interview, drop us an email at theapprenticeshipdiaries.gmail.com. We look forward to hearing from our listeners.