Ep. 239 "Piercing the Veil" (Diary Entry 1:2 with Allie Oxenblood)

[00:00:00] Hello and Happy Tuesday Diary listeners! Welcome! I'm excited, very excited to introduce to you this week's Diary Entry Focus.

[00:00:10] This is a two-part entry by Allie Oxenblood, the treehouse tattoo artist or tattooer.

[00:00:18] She operates out of West Virginia. She does ceremonial tattoo and she's quite the awesome lady.

[00:00:26] I hope you all can forgive me. I was exceedingly excited to talk to Allie and when I get excited, I tend to over-talk.

[00:00:39] And I really need to, I really need to rein it in guys.

[00:00:45] So I apologize to you guys and to Allie because I was just so excited to talk to her and share with her.

[00:00:52] We totally did not observe the, uh, the, the exploration of her, uh, apprenticeship nearly enough.

[00:01:01] Uh, we really just rapped about God and our concepts of God and, and going back and forth with that, which was super fun, uh, for me.

[00:01:12] Uh, I hope, I hope, I hope it is for all of you. Uh, I think it will be.

[00:01:18] Allie is a unique human and I really enjoy her so, so much.

[00:01:23] Uh, so we're, we're gonna call this first piece Piercing the Veil.

[00:01:28] Again, that's Piercing the Veil is what this first diary entry is going to be called because I, I, I think that's, that's about what it does.

[00:01:38] Enjoy listeners. And again, I'm sorry.

[00:01:47] Welcome to the apprenticeship diaries where raw meets refined.

[00:01:50] Let's be real. We're still working on what it took, what it takes and the stories that are made.

[00:01:56] Join us as we learn from professionals about how their stories begin.

[00:02:00] Like these like organic freestyle. You look fabulous by the way.

[00:02:23] Thank you. So do you.

[00:02:24] Yeah. I love your hair. It's very beautiful.

[00:02:26] I appreciate it. I love all of your, you know, I probably shouldn't tell you this story while we're recording, but I'll tell you anyway.

[00:02:34] I dyed my hair for since I was like, you know, 14 or 15 and never stopped.

[00:02:40] And then my kid gave me lice a couple of years ago.

[00:02:45] Um, and we got rid of the lights or so I thought.

[00:02:49] Um, and I called my hair stylist up and told her that we had a bout of lights, but I'd gotten rid of it and I was ready to come in to get my hair fixed.

[00:02:58] And she was shampooing my hair and I, I felt her just freeze.

[00:03:02] And I immediately knew, Oh my God, I still have lights.

[00:03:06] And, uh, she didn't say a word.

[00:03:08] She cut and did my hair really quick and got me out the door.

[00:03:11] And I was like, that's it. I can never get my hair done again.

[00:03:14] She was the most amazing stylist.

[00:03:16] And I'm so mortified.

[00:03:18] She didn't say a word about the lights, but we both knew.

[00:03:21] And I knew as soon as I walked out the door, she must've been like, that bitch had lice.

[00:03:26] So I'm like, I'm done. I'm done.

[00:03:29] And I'm never dying my hair again.

[00:03:31] And I've just let it go.

[00:03:34] And I, I like forgot what my hair looked like.

[00:03:37] And it turns out it's, I kind of like it, you know, kind of.

[00:03:39] It's beautiful.

[00:03:40] You have a nice ombre now.

[00:03:42] Yeah. It's kind of, it's, it's not bad.

[00:03:45] Which I don't know why the fuck that's the name.

[00:03:48] Yeah.

[00:03:48] You never wonder about these.

[00:03:52] Yes, I do.

[00:03:53] But I just figure that culture has passed me by and I've accepted it, you know?

[00:03:58] Yes.

[00:03:59] Because it's dumb.

[00:04:01] It's, I mean, seriously, why you call this transition from darker root hair to like light,

[00:04:11] you know, uh, I think it's man in Spanish ombre, you know, like, why are you calling that man?

[00:04:18] Or, or like dude, or I don't know, it's some kind of euphemism for a, a, a Spanish man or in Spanish man.

[00:04:26] Why are you calling that ombre?

[00:04:28] I had no idea.

[00:04:32] What would you call it?

[00:04:34] Fucking no.

[00:04:35] I don't know.

[00:04:37] I don't like the, I don't like the names.

[00:04:40] I'm very content with letting culture pass me by.

[00:04:43] I once had this girl speaking of, uh, locks and like hair and stuff.

[00:04:49] Cause I used to be do hair before I did tattooing.

[00:04:52] And she was like, I want Lolita curls.

[00:04:55] And I'm like, what?

[00:04:56] And she was like Lolita curls.

[00:04:58] And she was saying it like, I should know.

[00:05:02] And I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[00:05:04] And she's like, you know, and I was like, no, clearly.

[00:05:08] I don't know.

[00:05:09] Can you just, can you show me a picture?

[00:05:12] Because I don't like these things that like, I don't like having to, that's what it all comes down to.

[00:05:18] Right?

[00:05:18] Like, are you hip enough to know the common colloquial term?

[00:05:24] And the answer has always been no.

[00:05:27] No, no, no, I don't know.

[00:05:30] I can, can you use your words and describe what the hell you're talking about?

[00:05:35] That's, that's what you should feel bad about.

[00:05:38] The fact that you don't have the verbal skills to tell me how the hell you want your hair to look.

[00:05:46] Without using some buzzword that I, I should be feeling bad for because I don't know what.

[00:05:54] And I'm such a literary nerd.

[00:05:56] The first thing I think of is, oh my God, has she read the book?

[00:06:00] You know, I did think about that.

[00:06:02] I was like, and I honestly think that's why it became what it was because they're very dull, like curls.

[00:06:12] And I was like, creepy.

[00:06:14] Yeah.

[00:06:15] That's a little creepy.

[00:06:16] And she probably, I'm assuming she doesn't know that.

[00:06:19] Cause like what person in their right mind reads that book, knowing what the book is about.

[00:06:23] But yeah.

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:26] But I did read the book and now I'm like, oh wow.

[00:06:29] Okay.

[00:06:30] Yeah.

[00:06:30] Why would you want to, um, why would you make it up a hairstyle referencing Lolita?

[00:06:36] Yes.

[00:06:36] Um, okay.

[00:06:38] Well, I have to introduce you.

[00:06:40] Yep.

[00:06:41] After we just got real dark.

[00:06:44] Oh, this is totally getting in there.

[00:06:49] I, I, you know, lice is a common thing.

[00:06:51] I don't know what human being, if you've escaped lice in your life.

[00:06:56] Um, I mean, you're blessed.

[00:07:01] You're, you're, I don't think you had a good childhood, honestly.

[00:07:07] If you escaped lice.

[00:07:09] Well, you know, and also like with our job, we're up close and personal with people.

[00:07:15] And I found all kinds of, I found tics on people.

[00:07:19] Oh yeah.

[00:07:19] I know.

[00:07:20] Um, I've found melanoma on people and you know, sometimes skin rashes and infections

[00:07:26] and like, we were not doctors who don't diagnose, but I kind of feel like it's our duty or obligation

[00:07:33] as professionals to be like, Hey, you might want to get this looked at.

[00:07:36] I found this thing.

[00:07:37] I can't imagine.

[00:07:38] Um, if someone came in to sit in my chair, got tattooed and had lice for me to not like,

[00:07:46] just not address it.

[00:07:47] And, and I don't know, but that's just me.

[00:07:49] Maybe, maybe that, maybe I'm too much of like the, um, like a nebby old lady, like, Hey, you got,

[00:07:57] you got, but I just feel like that's the right thing to do.

[00:08:01] You know?

[00:08:01] I agree.

[00:08:02] No, I agree.

[00:08:03] And we'll, so everyone, this is, this is Allie, Allie Oxenblood.

[00:08:09] Hello.

[00:08:11] And you tattoo in West Virginia.

[00:08:13] So like the things that we're talking about right now, like this is if you, again, if you

[00:08:19] can live in West Virginia and not incur these like very potent things of real life.

[00:08:27] I don't, I don't think you're living in West Virginia.

[00:08:29] I don't believe you.

[00:08:30] Oh, damn right.

[00:08:32] It is wild out there.

[00:08:34] Every time I touch base with friends that live out there, um, I get closer to God, but like

[00:08:40] not, it would be in a good way if I didn't know such crazy people who live on the edge.

[00:08:48] So like when I get closer to God, it's because I almost met him.

[00:08:52] Like really, because I almost died.

[00:08:55] Um, I love that you're saying this.

[00:08:58] I I'm loving this right now.

[00:09:00] Cause I'm relating so much.

[00:09:02] They're wild, man.

[00:09:04] Uh huh.

[00:09:05] Yes.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:07] That's.

[00:09:08] I had a, a four wheeler roll completely back on me.

[00:09:13] I'll not, I'll not like go into too much of it with you and take up your, um, special.

[00:09:19] But basically after that happened, I was so fucking lucky.

[00:09:24] Like my, like my back cracked.

[00:09:27] I felt it crack.

[00:09:28] Oh my God.

[00:09:29] And I was like, I was able to stand right up.

[00:09:32] So that's a good like thing right away.

[00:09:34] Uh huh.

[00:09:35] The whole thing was stupid because we're all drunk as shit.

[00:09:37] And it's like at 11 PM at night.

[00:09:39] And the whole prospect was want to see our property.

[00:09:43] I'm like, bitch, I ain't seeing shit.

[00:09:45] Like there's no.

[00:09:48] Like you can see the stars, but seeing your property, but they're just all lit.

[00:09:55] And so I have this thing roll back on me.

[00:09:58] And, um, we, we all like, you know, get the fuel full wheeler back and all this stuff.

[00:10:04] And they're like, are you all right?

[00:10:05] And I'm like, I don't know.

[00:10:06] You know, like, yeah, you freeze.

[00:10:08] And you're like, I don't know.

[00:10:09] I have no idea.

[00:10:10] And they're like, well, can you move?

[00:10:11] And I'm like, yes.

[00:10:12] But my back cracked.

[00:10:13] And my friend Bob goes, bitch, get the fuck back up there.

[00:10:18] He's like, you just got the adjustment of your life.

[00:10:21] You're going to feel great tomorrow.

[00:10:23] Come on.

[00:10:24] We got to go to the river.

[00:10:26] Was he right?

[00:10:27] Were you okay?

[00:10:27] Oh yeah.

[00:10:28] I felt great the next day.

[00:10:29] It was crazy.

[00:10:30] I had this little gash that like, given the mountain ranges that we were going up, I could

[00:10:35] have, I could have been paralyzed forever.

[00:10:37] I had this little gash that I hit a rock mid back.

[00:10:40] And that was the only injury that I incurred.

[00:10:43] Wow.

[00:10:44] And before we left, they had, they had helmets.

[00:10:49] And I was like, Hey, could I, should I wear a helmet?

[00:10:52] They're like, no.

[00:10:54] What do you, why?

[00:10:55] And I was like, uh, what?

[00:10:59] Okay.

[00:10:59] And they're like, bitch, you don't wear.

[00:11:01] And then I was just thinking the whole time.

[00:11:03] I should have worn a helmet.

[00:11:04] I should have worn a helmet with these people.

[00:11:07] But maybe they were right.

[00:11:08] I mean, the helmet would have stopped your back.

[00:11:10] I know.

[00:11:11] It wouldn't.

[00:11:18] I was on the back with Bob.

[00:11:19] Cause I couldn't, I was actually riding tandem with, um, my guy at the time.

[00:11:24] He ended up, he ended up, you know, uh, getting back on and driving, uh, himself.

[00:11:30] But the, um, but me, but me, I got on the back with Bob.

[00:11:35] I was like, okay, asshole.

[00:11:36] Like if I'm going to do this now, I'm riding with you.

[00:11:39] Like Bob is one of these people that drives like a maniac.

[00:11:43] Like you are scared for your life the whole time, but you're so confident.

[00:11:48] Like there's something about like, you're like, it's either you don't care about dying,

[00:11:54] which cool.

[00:11:57] I like being on the back of a bike with somebody like that.

[00:12:01] Like screw it.

[00:12:03] Or you're just really knowledgeable enough to not kill us.

[00:12:08] It's one or the other, but for some reason that brings me a lot of peace.

[00:12:15] It's so interesting.

[00:12:18] I mean, I know.

[00:12:19] And he's like, here, have, have a sip of this.

[00:12:22] You need to relax.

[00:12:23] And he has me this huge thing of moonshine.

[00:12:26] He's been clearly drinking the whole night.

[00:12:29] And he was like, you need to relax.

[00:12:31] And I was like, Bob, the hell man, as he's like, borrowing down like dust in our face.

[00:12:38] He's like, they're like 45 degree angle.

[00:12:44] I guess that's what the grid.

[00:12:45] And it's like straight and he's going right.

[00:12:48] Like just the fastest you could possibly go.

[00:12:51] At one point I was like, Bob, could you just act like for a second that I just fell off one of these things?

[00:12:56] Like a little compassion.

[00:13:00] Nope.

[00:13:02] Have you ever read Hunter S Thompson's book that he wrote about riding with the hell of angels?

[00:13:09] I can't remember what it's called now.

[00:13:10] But I know who Hunter S Thompson is and I'm sure it's equally wild.

[00:13:15] He hung out with them for a few years and rode all around with them.

[00:13:19] And I remember this point in the book where he describes something similar to what you're talking about, like barreling down the highway, going like some crate, like, who knows how fast, you know?

[00:13:32] And he talks about this sensation of piercing the veil, piercing the veil between life and death.

[00:13:42] And this kind of goes back full circle to what you were just talking about.

[00:13:46] And I feel the same way about West Virginia, the state and the West Virginia people.

[00:13:52] There is a sense of being closer to God throughout the whole state.

[00:13:58] My nieces and nephews call it the jungle.

[00:14:00] I'm like, yeah, I'm over here in Nam.

[00:14:04] But it's like the veil is a little thinner.

[00:14:09] Mm hmm.

[00:14:10] And there's something about that where even though a lot of my neighbors are not religious people per se, they are in the myth of it, so to speak.

[00:14:21] And they're very clear what side of the myth they're on, which I think is really interesting.

[00:14:29] Like, even if they're not God fearing church going folks, they're very clear in their understanding of like things beyond what we can see, I guess.

[00:14:40] And I just think it's very interesting to have conversations with people like that.

[00:14:46] Oh, yeah.

[00:14:47] You know, when I am deeply.

[00:14:52] I guess you'd call it religion, religious right now.

[00:14:56] I see religious as just habitually submitting yourself to something, you know, on a regular basis.

[00:15:02] That's what I consider to be a religious act.

[00:15:05] I don't consider myself dogmatic because I couldn't be dogmatic to save my life.

[00:15:10] I'm not I'm not routine enough.

[00:15:12] I'm too wayward and too whimsical.

[00:15:15] Like there's no way that I could just be regimented.

[00:15:18] That's my problem.

[00:15:20] So so I see it as you know, you have.

[00:15:23] First of all, everybody talks about the city and they're like, oh, is the city day?

[00:15:27] I'm like, no, the city has roads and hospitals like the city is not scary.

[00:15:31] OK, you want scary go out and do you even wonder why they like have these horror films out in the middle of fucking nowhere?

[00:15:40] Like you're like miles from the next person.

[00:15:44] And like you're you're one bug bite away from like desperation.

[00:15:49] Like because there's things that are out there like brown recluse fighters.

[00:15:54] Like, you know, you get bit, man.

[00:15:56] It's a problem.

[00:15:57] And you got you got a serious issue.

[00:16:00] So like I think the the intensity of that.

[00:16:04] And that's why I think a lot of people perceive nature as like a.

[00:16:10] You know, like like I don't believe in God, but I believe in nature because nature is so potent and it teaches you so quickly what you need to know.

[00:16:22] And it baselines your your whole experience.

[00:16:25] You don't have to be a scholar to understand it.

[00:16:29] It's very intuitive.

[00:16:31] It's very something that any person can learn really quickly.

[00:16:35] And if you don't, you're screwed.

[00:16:37] And so I think that that that kind of like you said, it just kind of gets you a little closer to grounded and real.

[00:16:47] And my my retort always to that is like.

[00:16:52] You know, I said, I, I get you.

[00:16:55] I think nature is God's most beautiful painting that he's ever made.

[00:16:59] And it's meant to make us connect to God that way.

[00:17:04] You know, and I said, but, you know, if nature was the defining factor, I would like you to explain how I exist.

[00:17:12] Because because I make art for a living and I can tell you right now that there's something super natural about that, like because no other animal has the ability to sit around and let alone.

[00:17:26] Let alone, let alone make art like we make art and society and civilization civilization and buildings and philosophy and all these other things, but submit themselves to the pain of having that inscribed on them.

[00:17:43] What we are doing right now is either highly elevated or highly stupid.

[00:17:50] So you tell me how that, how that works.

[00:17:57] And they got they got nothing.

[00:18:01] And I'm like, you know, so, you know, they want the proof of God and I was like, that's like the greatest proof I can ever think of is that.

[00:18:08] If you can't sit here and tell me how this makes sense, then how do you need so much proof for God?

[00:18:14] I think that's odd.

[00:18:18] And there's, there's so much to that.

[00:18:21] There's like, there's a lot in there.

[00:18:25] I would, I think like so many people in our generation, I used to be very afraid of the word religious comes with so much baggage.

[00:18:33] Um, and I was raised as a very religious kid and walked away from it at a young age, which will probably tie back into some of the questions that you ask.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:45] We ever get to them.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:47] But who cares?

[00:18:50] Maybe it's gonna be as long as hell.

[00:18:52] Like, I love it.

[00:18:52] Great.

[00:18:53] But, um, it was kind of coming back to the nature and, and then having my first child that sort of brought me full circle back to God.

[00:19:05] And, um, I no longer have the fear and expressing, yes, I am very deeply religious.

[00:19:11] You could call it spiritual.

[00:19:12] I don't care.

[00:19:13] But I think that sometimes there is language to describe things that can only be described in the language of the religious.

[00:19:22] And it's like the deepest concepts.

[00:19:24] There's just, and it's the language that I was brought up with.

[00:19:27] I don't have any other language to describe those experiences other than religious.

[00:19:32] So to me, it's, um, I like how, how you said that you're not a dogmatic person and it's this idea of submitting.

[00:19:40] Mm hmm.

[00:19:41] And what, what I realized after so many years of being like vehemently nihilistically atheist was I was angry at the authoritarian coercion tied up in religion.

[00:19:55] And I didn't know how to untangle that.

[00:19:57] And I had this beautiful realization when I realized I was going to become a mom and I was thinking about raising my kid.

[00:20:05] Um, and I, I had this, it kind of dawned on me that this idea of free will is to me the most beautiful sacred.

[00:20:17] I have ideas.

[00:20:19] Um, and, and I, I, I reflect on it all the time.

[00:20:23] I can't even really put it into words how much that idea of free will means to me.

[00:20:28] And, and I think it's, it just is at the root of, of everything.

[00:20:33] It's the root of the conceptualization of us as human beings and what makes us the crazy, weird, stupid people that we are that, that stab ourselves with needles and inscribe art upon us.

[00:20:46] You know, it's just, it's so, it's so much of, of who we are.

[00:20:51] And I think that for me, my, my religion is in this idea that like, I lived so much of my youth with this, like, okay, I I'm walking away from faith.

[00:21:04] So therefore nothing matters.

[00:21:06] Mm hmm.

[00:21:07] And that took me to a really dark place.

[00:21:09] It was not a good way to live my life.

[00:21:11] And I think truth, um, can be measured in its functionality across many domains.

[00:21:19] And when I shifted my thinking around, everything is meaningless to, well, maybe I should just take the leap of faith that everything is meaningful because you can like, basically at, at the final analysis of any argument, you can derive one of those two things.

[00:21:37] Everything is meaningless or meaningful.

[00:21:40] And I don't know, really, I don't know.

[00:21:43] And I'm okay with not knowing my faith isn't perfect, but I'd rather take the leap of faith in believing that living my life as if everything is the most meaningful and maybe be wrong.

[00:21:58] Then live my life with the opposite conclusion and find out that I've wasted my life.

[00:22:03] Yeah.

[00:22:04] And it's been wrong at the end.

[00:22:05] So that's, I would say that's kind of like the basis of my faith.

[00:22:11] And it's not.

[00:22:12] I love it.

[00:22:14] Pretty messy, but.

[00:22:15] No, no, no.

[00:22:16] Yeah.

[00:22:17] That was a beautiful testimony, honestly.

[00:22:19] Um, and, and in terms, I think that I, I don't think you'd have to be religious to experience.

[00:22:25] In fact, I think you, um, might have just spoke better about that than I was able to, because I was not raised religious.

[00:22:36] I was raised secular.

[00:22:37] So when I speak about it in this, in very similar terms, as you just did, I don't think people really can, uh, hear it as well.

[00:22:46] Because, uh, it's so I do speak so massively in terms that religious people really understand.

[00:22:52] Mm-hmm .

[00:22:53] And how much I get it now.

[00:22:55] Um, but it was very similar.

[00:22:57] And I think that that is what experience a lot of people who find themselves to be atheist.

[00:23:04] Or, you know, that nihilistic camp.

[00:23:07] And I do think it's prevalent in the tattoo community, especially.

[00:23:12] Um, which I think is, I mean, we're all on our journey, so I can't really judge it, but it kind of breaks my heart because, um, some of the things that you dip into.

[00:23:25] When you are in that nihilistic mode is a proliferation of that philosophy to other people as you're working with them and tattooing so sacred.

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:37] It's, it's such an impact on a person.

[00:23:39] And when you realize that you might've encouraged them to go deeper into a darker path yourself as someone who, you know, has marked them permanently.

[00:23:50] That, that, that weighs heavy once you realize, once you go outside of the whole nothing matters rooms and into that everything matters.

[00:23:59] Totally.

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:00] It's completely changed the way that I tattoo.

[00:24:03] Mm-hmm .

[00:24:04] I see tattoos as they can be blessings or curses.

[00:24:08] Mm-hmm .

[00:24:09] And, you know, I learned that lesson.

[00:24:11] Um, when I first started tattooing in a pretty scary way.

[00:24:17] I, I tattooed a guy, um, who wanted like a horror portrait kind of thing.

[00:24:23] And I really wanted to get into color realism.

[00:24:25] So I jumped the gun and was like, yeah, I'm going to do this thing without giving really any thought to it.

[00:24:31] Cause it was early, early on in my career.

[00:24:35] And it was my first opportunity to do this.

[00:24:38] So I was thinking of myself in that moment.

[00:24:41] Oh my gosh, this person is letting me put a color portrait on him.

[00:24:45] This is going to be so fun.

[00:24:48] And, um, when I was tattooing the image on him, I was just asking him about it as I do with everybody.

[00:24:55] And like, what does this mean to you?

[00:24:59] You know, is this from a movie or something?

[00:25:00] And he goes, well, it's a woman being abducted.

[00:25:04] It was an image of a, of a, of a woman with like a phantom behind her and a hand clasped over her mouth.

[00:25:14] And when he said that to me, I just got like cold chills.

[00:25:19] I was like, Oh my God, what am I doing?

[00:25:22] What, what did I just put on this person?

[00:25:24] Well, and in some way he was, he was investing in his own dark fantasy with that too, because he just hijacked you in that moment too, spiritually.

[00:25:36] Cause he, you know,

[00:25:37] I didn't even think about it like that, but yeah, he, he had a fantasy.

[00:25:42] So this place of like, nothing really matters.

[00:25:50] Um, to me has just fallen flat on its face time after time after time.

[00:25:56] And I look back at that now.

[00:25:58] And I think, um, I, I can think of pretty much every tattoo that I've made for somebody having some sort of trajectory.

[00:26:07] And we have to be very cognizant of that.

[00:26:10] We have to be very thoughtful about that.

[00:26:13] And, and not that like we necessarily are steering our, our clients, you know, it's their journey, but we are in the vehicle with them for a period of time, facilitating that journey and instantiating it.

[00:26:32] And, um, it, it just, I, I realized in that moment, what a mistake I had made.

[00:26:38] And I realized I don't ever want to feel this way again, you know, like, yeah.

[00:26:43] And the only solace I really had was, okay, I've put this on this guy's forearm and maybe this will be a warning to people who meet this person because it's right out there in the open.

[00:26:53] So there is that.

[00:26:55] Mm hmm.

[00:26:56] Yeah.

[00:26:57] Yeah, no, totally.

[00:26:58] And, and, um, you know, the same question that they would ask him if he wasn't probed by the artist to put it on was why did you get this?

[00:27:07] And he would say, you know, probably boldly in every moment.

[00:27:11] And, and who knows the other solace might be that that's as far as it scaled.

[00:27:15] Cause maybe he was only after the reaction that people would have of him answering that question.

[00:27:22] You know, maybe that was just hopefully the only sick thrill that he was after.

[00:27:28] Um, Oh man, who knows?

[00:27:30] One could hope, but no, I think that's a really great, uh, yeah, that's why I don't like to stick to the questions that much because, um,

[00:27:41] first of all, a good book when you're reading it, since you like to read, doesn't that have to grip you in like the first few moments?

[00:27:47] So I feel like we've already hooked people to this.

[00:27:53] And like, that was such a good lesson for people when they, they just get into this.

[00:27:57] Cause I think we're in kind of a different phase in tattooing than you or I experienced.

[00:28:02] It was a lot more, um, abusive because information was withheld and you had to like hunt it so desperately, but now it's just every, everything is everywhere.

[00:28:15] And, and you have just replicas of replicas of replicas and people are just trying to get into this industry, but it's so saturated that.

[00:28:24] That.

[00:28:25] You know, you, you do go into that more sociopic.

[00:28:29] I'm thinking about me and the experience that I want to have in my learning journey that you're not thinking about what you're actually doing.

[00:28:37] And so having that go out right away, uh, to anyone who's listening, I think is good.

[00:28:44] Be like, Hey, uh, this matters what you put on people and why they're getting it.

[00:28:50] And like, don't just do anything.

[00:28:54] Um, it's huge.

[00:28:56] So how long have you been tattooing now?

[00:29:00] So I had to actually think about this when I looked over the questions you sent me because one, I'm terrible with timelines.

[00:29:09] I'm not a linear thinker to I've blacked out a lot or blocked out a lot of my, um, my teenage years.

[00:29:17] And, and so like my apprenticeship beginning is a messy convoluted one.

[00:29:26] Um, the best answer I could come up with is I would say I roughly started apprenticing around 20.

[00:29:32] Give or take a few years.

[00:29:34] It was like a slow chugging start between 17 and 20.

[00:29:40] Gotcha.

[00:29:41] So it's, it's a, it's been about 16 years.

[00:29:44] I wish that I had like the perfect timestamp.

[00:29:47] Like some people do on this day.

[00:29:48] I did, you know, but I don't, I don't have that.

[00:29:51] It's the same with me.

[00:29:52] Uh, I say 16, but, um, I started and stopped.

[00:29:56] I had two apprenticeships and yeah, there was a lot of just blocking it out and just trudging forward.

[00:30:05] Like, I don't, I don't know.

[00:30:06] I don't even know.

[00:30:06] I've told people it doesn't even matter.

[00:30:08] I'm like, they're like, how long should I tell people?

[00:30:11] I feel weird telling them I've only been tattooing one year.

[00:30:13] I was like, well, tell them how long you think they need to hear.

[00:30:16] And they were like, what?

[00:30:19] I was like, come on, man.

[00:30:20] It's not going to make any difference as to how you tattoo.

[00:30:22] I know some shit tattooers have been tattooing 20 years.

[00:30:26] I'm like, it's not going to make a difference.

[00:30:29] I know some amazing kids that only have a year or two under their belt and that just blow me out of the water.

[00:30:35] So yeah, it's.

[00:30:39] I don't like to operate in lies, but like, if that's what your hurdle is, like, you know, confess later.

[00:30:48] After you've made them thrilled, be like, guess what?

[00:30:50] I was lying to you.

[00:30:52] I've only been doing it this long.

[00:30:55] But look, look what we did.

[00:30:58] I, you know, cause that's how it is, right?

[00:31:05] Like, I don't, it is a, it's however you need to imbue trust in someone.

[00:31:12] I do think that ultimate transparency is necessary, but I think it's hard when you're working with something that.

[00:31:19] Like, as an artist, you're only so confident.

[00:31:22] Like I'm, I'm submitting myself regularly to.

[00:31:29] Being fairly confident that what I'm telling them I can do, I can do.

[00:31:33] And it's gonna, you know, mostly be this way.

[00:31:36] When I show you what I'm, I'm thinking.

[00:31:39] But I don't really know because that would take away from like the art and the art making and.

[00:31:45] All of us doing something really cool together that will never be done again.

[00:31:49] And so you don't want to completely, you know.

[00:31:54] Map it out like again, that dogma, you know, you want to take a journey together and that's what makes it even cooler and being in the moment and making decisions in the moment that kind of gives it that little extra.

[00:32:05] You know, zip.

[00:32:09] So, you know, I, I, sometimes after I get done, I'd use my dad's, he's been cutting hair since I was little.

[00:32:17] Um, get done with cutting hair now and he'll be like, Oh, look at that.

[00:32:21] I got lucky again.

[00:32:23] And I kind of adopt that dad joke.

[00:32:26] It's just kind of like, yeah, you know, like, look.

[00:32:34] Excuse this interruption listeners.

[00:32:36] But I wanted to actually read something to you that Allie had written.

[00:32:41] It's a, it's kind of a diary entry that she posted to Facebook and I asked her permission if I could share it with all of you in a post form.

[00:32:50] I'm going to post a screenshot of her actual story, but I wanted to take the opportunity since I did not ask enough early day questions of her about her apprenticeship.

[00:33:04] I felt like this would be a good submittance.

[00:33:07] And I'm going to read this, uh, this Facebook post to you so that you get a little bit of a sense as you're listening to the rest of this podcast, what Allie's time was like in her day of being an apprentice.

[00:33:22] So here we go.

[00:33:23] When I first started tattooing, my boss had me tattoo a homeless man for $6.

[00:33:28] I'm pretty sure the man paid in nickels, which I did not get a percentage of.

[00:33:33] He told my boss that he wanted a shamrock on his elbow, and I was the lucky apprentice that day.

[00:33:39] I had only set up for a couple of tattoos at this point.

[00:33:43] I began to apply the stencil and realized that I was on my own in this endeavor.

[00:33:48] When I removed the stencil paper, a barnacle crumbled off along with the purple lines and the clover disintegrated into a pile of ash.

[00:33:57] With the first wipe and a dusty puff of smoke, I gave up on the pipe dream that I would ever again find that stencil.

[00:34:05] I contorted my body into every angle manageable so that my nose did not come into direct contact with his powerful odor, all while attempting to pull a curtain of skin back to find the center point of his elbow to no avail.

[00:34:21] Imagine trying to tattoo on a melting raw pizza crust covered in dinosaur bone and cirotic flesh.

[00:34:31] I think that's how you say that.

[00:34:33] Cirotic? Carotic?

[00:34:34] Allie, you're smarter than me.

[00:34:37] Finally, after losing my entire forearm and the carnivorous pillow of elephant ear skin, I managed to inscribe somewhere.

[00:34:45] Four somewhat round cleft leaves.

[00:34:48] It was a painful 27 minutes during which he likely evacuated his bladder as well.

[00:34:55] When I finished the tattoo, he stared at it for a minute before declaring,

[00:34:59] It looks like a daisy!

[00:35:01] But then he paused and before walking out the door, he said,

[00:35:06] At least now when I die, they won't bury me with the goddamn Canucks.

[00:35:11] No idea what that means, but I'll never forget it.

[00:35:14] The end.

[00:35:16] And now, back to our podcast.

[00:35:20] You know, for me, what I think is more significant than the amount of time I've been tattooing,

[00:35:25] is the amount of time that it took for me to be like,

[00:35:32] Okay, I finally am confident enough in my craft that I know that no matter what I try, it's not going to suck.

[00:35:40] Yep.

[00:35:41] And I think it took me about 10 years.

[00:35:43] I think it was around the 10 year mark where I was like,

[00:35:47] Not that you can rest on your laurels, but at least like,

[00:35:51] Like, I think the first 10 years of tattooing, I went to work every day with a sense of sheer terror and panic.

[00:35:59] Like, I have no idea how to go, you know?

[00:36:01] Yeah, no, I hear that.

[00:36:04] And I also hear it in terms of like, I tell everybody, you know, 10 year, there's a reason why you get 10 years, a mentor and things and why I think 10 years is a good time.

[00:36:13] If you ever want to start thinking about teaching, that would be the, the time marker on average for people.

[00:36:22] So that makes perfect sense.

[00:36:23] It seems like a very accurate place to be like, Okay, I could probably teach this now.

[00:36:32] I'm not terrified.

[00:36:33] So I can give that confidence to not only myself, but someone else.

[00:36:37] Makes sense.

[00:36:38] It does.

[00:36:39] Yeah, there's some practical wisdom in there for sure.

[00:36:42] Mm hmm.

[00:36:42] So what? Okay.

[00:36:44] So we've already established that it was rough in some regards.

[00:36:49] I guess talk to me as to why first you wanted to get into tattooing or why it was a profession that you kind of, you know, thought you'd be good at or that you were interested in.

[00:37:01] So I was a musician.

[00:37:06] And that was kind of my main, my main focus.

[00:37:09] I thought that was how I was going to spend my life pursuing music.

[00:37:12] I always did art, but I just didn't even conceptualize that I could make a career doing art.

[00:37:18] It just didn't even occur to me.

[00:37:20] And I moved out on my own pretty young and started playing in a band with some guys that were in their 20s and 30s.

[00:37:31] I was still under 18.

[00:37:32] And I would go to a tattoo shop that my bass player pierced at pretty regularly and hang out there and work on music in between piercings.

[00:37:44] Because as you know, piercers, that's not really a real job.

[00:37:46] They just.

[00:37:46] Yeah, no, no.

[00:37:48] But I am.

[00:37:49] I am happy to hear the bass player was the one doing the piercing.

[00:37:53] I think out of all band members, they're the most like.

[00:37:56] Un crazy.

[00:37:59] Well, I don't know.

[00:38:01] Not in.

[00:38:04] Piercers are good at piercing.

[00:38:06] That's like what they're good at.

[00:38:08] Like, yeah, I'm sorry, piercers out there, but life thing on other realms is I've seen pretty tenuous for you.

[00:38:18] Yeah, it's wild.

[00:38:20] It's like living in West Virginia.

[00:38:23] Yeah.

[00:38:25] Go ahead.

[00:38:25] I'm sorry.

[00:38:26] It's fine.

[00:38:28] It was.

[00:38:29] Yeah, he was.

[00:38:30] He was a wild dude.

[00:38:32] Dating the stripper, you know, hitting the bars.

[00:38:35] And and I was pretty like I somehow managed to kind of skate or skirt past all of the like the hardcore stuff that I was definitely around, but somehow not really exposed to.

[00:38:49] But I like I was so naive and sheltered and then who was on my own hanging out with adults when I was very much not an adult.

[00:38:59] And I think maybe there was somebody looking out for me because I was kind of totally oblivious to the dangers that I was surrounded by at the time.

[00:39:09] But this shop that I was hanging out with had a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes.

[00:39:16] And I just I didn't even know until years later, but the idea was first put into my head by my bassist and I was like, oh, my God, I can't.

[00:39:27] I'm a little kid.

[00:39:28] I can't do this.

[00:39:29] You know, like what are you talking about?

[00:39:30] But I'd sit there drawing our concert posters, you know, whatever he was doing and he'd be like, learn how to tattoo.

[00:39:39] And I was honestly just not confident in myself at all.

[00:39:43] I was just terrified by the idea, but it planted the seed.

[00:39:47] And I ended up getting tattooed in that studio shortly after.

[00:39:54] And.

[00:39:56] At some point around that time, I I think maybe within a year or two of that idea, I started to really consider it.

[00:40:04] And it was.

[00:40:05] It was kind of like, well, I've been hanging out in these shops long enough to see that clearly you don't really have to be like the best artist to be able to do tattoos like.

[00:40:18] And some of these guys, you know, they hang out all night hitting the bars.

[00:40:21] They're not staying home drink or, you know, drawing.

[00:40:24] Yeah.

[00:40:25] And so like I, I thought like, well, it seems like there's not that as high of a bar as I thought maybe I could do this.

[00:40:34] And it took me a couple of years of walking into shops and, you know, talking to gruff old men were like, I'm definitely not a finishing and underage girl.

[00:40:46] And now I'm like, yeah, good on you, but probably the right move.

[00:40:52] God.

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:55] Well, I think I was about 19 or 20 when I got my first job apprenticing.

[00:41:01] And the only reason I got the job was because the owner of that studio was also a musician.

[00:41:08] Right on.

[00:41:09] In a metal band.

[00:41:11] I played in a metal band and we knew each other through the metal scene.

[00:41:14] And so, so that was, and I think I had an autoclave and he needed an autoclave.

[00:41:20] So, so.

[00:41:22] Why did you have an autoclave?

[00:41:24] Um, my dad loaned me a thousand bucks and I found a guy getting rid of like all of his, he had like a tattoo kit.

[00:41:33] Oh.

[00:41:34] That he was selling on Craigslist for a thousand bucks.

[00:41:37] And.

[00:41:38] Right on.

[00:41:38] And it, it, it, I remember I got like this, like aluminum machine with like a, a chromed out money sign on it.

[00:41:46] And, uh, just, you know, it was like my first initial setup and it was enough to, to work with.

[00:41:55] It was not great, but.

[00:41:57] Yeah.

[00:41:57] And go dad.

[00:41:58] He was, uh, it sounds like supportive of this, uh, mission.

[00:42:03] Surprisingly.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:05] My dad was like, cool.

[00:42:07] I believe in you.

[00:42:08] Oh, well, I think that real, real people of faith, um, are like that because.

[00:42:15] And I tell people all the time, I'm like, I don't care how much satanic tattoos you have on you.

[00:42:21] If you go through real repentance.

[00:42:24] It.

[00:42:24] It doesn't matter.

[00:42:26] It doesn't matter.

[00:42:27] So people who have real faith know.

[00:42:29] Um, you know, they know to let live.

[00:42:34] And like God.

[00:42:35] Yeah.

[00:42:36] So that's cool.

[00:42:38] That's really cool.

[00:42:39] Yeah.

[00:42:40] Awesome.

[00:42:40] So he needed an autoclave.

[00:42:42] Awesome.

[00:42:43] Oh, well, and I was going to say, um, my friend, Neil, he's 75 at church.

[00:42:50] He used to run a bar and he said, I could never hire the best women to hire were in their thirties.

[00:42:57] He's like, because they know how to handle.

[00:42:59] They know how to handle the bar and they know how to keep their head level.

[00:43:03] They're the best.

[00:43:03] Cause you know, clients men typically like to interact with them and all this stuff, but they can, they can hit back just as much as their hit.

[00:43:12] And they know how to keep their eye on the job.

[00:43:15] Um, he's like younger women.

[00:43:16] They'll get distracted too often.

[00:43:18] They get, they either get offended or they, they are being hit on by a guy that they're like, Oh, you know?

[00:43:24] Oh, and then they forget that they have like all these other people that they got to deal with.

[00:43:28] And he's like, you know, I just, I, you have to be very clear.

[00:43:32] He's like, you know, of course everybody's different.

[00:43:34] He's like, but, um, for the most part on average, uh, the, the best people to hire were in their thirties.

[00:43:41] Cause they, you know, they just knew how to handle people in that regard, you know?

[00:43:46] So it, it makes sense on a lot of levels, not even.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:51] Now I remember when I started tattooing my boss, my second time, he was like, all right.

[00:43:57] How cool are you?

[00:43:58] And I was like, what do you mean?

[00:44:00] And he was like, I mean, I just kind of want to know how are you with like dead baby jokes and rape jokes.

[00:44:07] And I said, well, as long as they're jokes and there's no actual rape or dead babies, I'm fine.

[00:44:13] He's like, I'm not saying that because you're going to deal with those things literally, but a lot of crazy stuff comes through these doors.

[00:44:21] And he's like, and I just want to know that you're going to be able to keep your head about you.

[00:44:26] You know, like that you're going to be able to roll with the insanity that is, that is, you know, Glenn Burney, Maryland, uh, that we, you know, they, we had, there's actually a documentary about this, this character, this homeless character called Brittany Dale girl or, or Brittany Dale or, or something like that.

[00:44:48] But it's a guy who dresses like Brittany Spears and walks the roads of Glenn Burney.

[00:44:54] And, and, and, and I heard that this person used to come in and like give lap dances to like, like just from the street.

[00:45:06] Like, so like in knowing, in knowing this was, you know, a potential, I was like, Oh, okay.

[00:45:16] You know, like I, and it's like you said, like, I think that we were kept from it.

[00:45:22] If I have any, you know, I don't know what God knows, but I think when you have a good heart, um, you know, you're, you're, you're kept from a lot of that stuff.

[00:45:32] I think in certain ways, because you're meant to observe it enough to kind of infiltrate if you will, and see the good hearts and other people, even though they're fettered and flawed and all of that stuff.

[00:45:48] But you're, you're, you're just as like a perpetual observer as an artist who's meant to, you know, elevate this to a higher level of artistic understanding and expression, because you need to be able to, like you said, like pierce the veil a bit enough for, you know, normies.

[00:46:07] I hate to put that, but for them to like, be like, what the heck is, but it, it shows them so much because.

[00:46:14] You know, we, we kind of live on the edge of a lot of that stuff.

[00:46:18] We're on the subversive edge of things and we, good art isn't good unless it's like asking you to see something that you wouldn't otherwise see.

[00:46:27] Otherwise it's just hanging up in a hotel, you know, just like, you know, it's valuable for that, but that's what it's about.

[00:46:35] It's not meant to communicate other than anything than just decorating and making you feel kind of light in a space.

[00:46:44] Hmm.

[00:46:45] Yeah.

[00:46:47] I'm glad you had that.

[00:46:48] I had that too.

[00:46:50] Yeah.

[00:46:51] Yeah, definitely.

[00:46:53] I mean, don't get me wrong.

[00:46:55] Like I witnessed a lot of terrible, scary things that I, I hope that no young person tattooing today ever has to experience.

[00:47:06] Um, and like I said, some of it, I kind of blocked out for a long time.

[00:47:14] Um, but you know, I was listening to your, um, podcast with Gunner this morning.

[00:47:21] I love him.

[00:47:21] I love him.

[00:47:23] He's so great.

[00:47:24] Um, but he was talking about how the guy who apprenticed him said something like, yeah, you didn't really have what it takes anyway.

[00:47:31] And he said like that kind of pushed him and, and if, if that's all that those early years of my apprenticeship did, it's certainly definitely did that.

[00:47:41] And I'm grateful for that at the very least, not that I think people should have to be traumatized to have that feeling of being, um, pushed to be their best.

[00:47:51] But, you know, spite is a great motivator.

[00:47:55] It is.

[00:47:59] Well, I do think that it's, it exemplifies what it takes, you know, like you do have to prove that you're willing to, to no matter what, you know, kind of.

[00:48:20] Yeah.

[00:48:21] And that's, I think that's what we try to communicate with people when they, when we say you got to earn it is that it's like, it's not like we want you to be abused, but you do have to show kind of like a blind passion for it beyond, beyond whatever you could sit there and be like, but it should be done this way.

[00:48:39] It's like, dude, where, what, in what world are you getting that sense that it should be this way?

[00:48:46] Like, you know, like, does that make good art?

[00:48:49] Does that make good anything?

[00:48:50] Like, you know, the rules, like sticking it in a box and putting a label on it that makes it all nice and neat and happy for everybody.

[00:48:57] Like, does that bring out the best in anything or anyone?

[00:49:00] I don't think so.

[00:49:01] Yeah.

[00:49:03] It's not, I'm reading a book that's called Ruthless Trust and it's all about God and, and this priest, he's a former piece, priest, idea of God.

[00:49:15] And, and it's about having ruthless trust.

[00:49:17] And he said to mother Teresa once, or this, this, he was quoting somebody.

[00:49:22] He said to mother Teresa once that he wanted, uh, he wanted God to give him confidence and awareness for what's ahead.

[00:49:29] And she said, Oh no, you should never, you should never pray for that.

[00:49:34] He's like, what?

[00:49:35] And she's like, you don't pray for that.

[00:49:37] And I forget what she told him, but she was basically like, you know, on the converse end of what to pray for.

[00:49:43] It was like, dude, if you, if you knew, then what would you need God for?

[00:49:49] You know, like the point of faith is to have faith, you know, like it's to, it's, it's to leverage, like leverage what you think, you know, and dip into something.

[00:50:01] Like you said, fall into something you don't know and walk that.

[00:50:06] And when you're able to do that over and over and over again, that's what you have confidence in is God.

[00:50:13] You're, you're building a trust with God.

[00:50:16] You're building this.

[00:50:18] And then the awareness of that pops off so often and so much, you can't communicate it to anyone because it's your personal experience.

[00:50:25] You're just like light bulb, light bulb, God, God, God, wow.

[00:50:29] And you know, like, that's incredible.

[00:50:31] Like, thank you, God.

[00:50:32] Thank you, God.

[00:50:33] Like, you know, it's that.

[00:50:36] But, and, but that's what the point is.

[00:50:40] And, you know, we, we as tattoo artists experience that on a microcosm because of the trust, like I said, that you have to build with your clients all the time.

[00:50:48] When you ask them to take that kind of leap, leap of faith in you.

[00:50:52] So, you know, we're doing this together.

[00:50:55] And I think it's your observance.

[00:50:58] Obviously, you're a very introspective person.

[00:51:01] I don't know how you were when you were a nihilist, but like, obviously you were paying attention.

[00:51:09] Yes.

[00:51:09] And I think that, you know, it's important, especially after you become a mother, I'm sure, to have this revelation of like, how can I withhold pain from people, but still give them, you know, something very special.

[00:51:24] And, you know, mitigate the, the pain, but still, you know, you know, give you something that's powerful.

[00:51:33] And that's, you know, that's, that's like being a good parent.

[00:51:35] It's like, I want better for you than I had.

[00:51:40] So that's pretty cool.

[00:51:42] I love, uh, that has been like, yeah, yeah, that's, um, that's been a big part of my, um, of my life story.

[00:51:53] I think what you just said, um, introspecting about that, about walking that line.

[00:51:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:59] And, um, I, I got into the trade of massage therapy before and kind of while apprenticing.

[00:52:08] Wow.

[00:52:09] That's cool.

[00:52:10] It's cool.

[00:52:11] Yeah.

[00:52:11] And I've, I've kind of been getting back into it after just focusing on tattooing solely for a long time.

[00:52:16] Um, but I, I remember thinking about it at one point, like what in the world was it that, um, attracted me to these two very strange, uh, very different trades.

[00:52:28] And there's actually a lot of similarities in the two that still reveal themselves to me with time.

[00:52:35] And, um, I, I just think that like one of my biggest challenges in life has been unlearning this concept, this idea that I had in my head of like, I can take people's pain away.

[00:52:51] Like I'm some kind of God myself, like, Oh, I let me take that from you because it's too much for you to bear.

[00:52:59] But I, for so much of it, I got this and it's really a fucked up way to treat people and treat yourself, you know?

[00:53:07] Um, and during the first half of my tattooing career, I coddled people.

[00:53:14] I, I hated hurting people.

[00:53:17] Um, my, the, my mentor wanted me to pierce and I cried after every single piercing that I did.

[00:53:24] I just hated, hated piercing people so much.

[00:53:28] Um, and, and it was even kind of like that with tattooing.

[00:53:31] And what I ended up learning after a long time, it took me a long time to learn this is coddling people is not to their benefit.

[00:53:41] It does them no good at all.

[00:53:43] No good at all.

[00:53:44] And in fact, it probably does them harm.

[00:53:47] It does them more harm.

[00:53:48] And it wasn't until I stopped coddling my clients that I think, um, the real gift of tattooing was revealed in the experience of just like being there as the person who encourages, like you got this.

[00:54:06] Yes.

[00:54:07] It's, it's uncomfortable.

[00:54:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:10] But the only way out is through and I'm here with you and you know, you, you've got this.

[00:54:16] That's, that's really about it.

[00:54:17] That's all you can do.

[00:54:18] Like, it's not going to get easier, but you'll get stronger.

[00:54:22] And, and it's definitely like, that's obviously a huge part of being a parent too.

[00:54:28] Um, but it was just such an important lesson for me to learn as a tattooer that really took a lot of unwinding over the years.

[00:54:36] I'm just thinking about my, my way of dealing with this.

[00:54:40] I always say, I'm sorry because I still hate it.

[00:54:42] I'm very codependent.

[00:54:44] And they're like, no, you don't.

[00:54:45] And I'm like, cause I'm, I'm like pushing as hard as I have to push.

[00:54:50] Like, I'm sorry.

[00:54:52] And they're like, no, you're not bitch.

[00:54:54] And, and we just laugh about it.

[00:54:56] Like, that's our way of like mutually not.

[00:54:59] They're like, I asked for this.

[00:55:00] And I said, you did.

[00:55:02] You actually did.

[00:55:03] And then we just laugh and move on and we grit it together.

[00:55:06] But like, I do want to know that I just genuinely don't come to this from a place of a sadistic wanting to evoke pain on you.

[00:55:16] You know?

[00:55:17] Yes.

[00:55:17] And going back to massage, you know, I, I was like very much like the.

[00:55:22] Good massages hurt.

[00:55:24] Orangutan hands.

[00:55:25] That was.

[00:55:26] And like, I need a massage from you.

[00:55:28] Like when we are here, I'm totally getting a massage from you.

[00:55:31] I got you girl.

[00:55:32] Yes.

[00:55:32] And like, people don't expect it because I'm little, but like, I, you know.

[00:55:37] That is not a determination.

[00:55:39] No, it's not.

[00:55:40] It's not.

[00:55:41] And, and so, and I used to get the same thing with massage.

[00:55:44] People would be like, you know, you are sadistic.

[00:55:46] And I realized like, I'm very sensitive to that too.

[00:55:49] I don't like to hurt people.

[00:55:50] There's no part of me that enjoys that.

[00:55:53] But I do like to help facilitate people working through their discomfort.

[00:55:59] Their healing.

[00:56:00] Yeah.

[00:56:00] It took me a long time to realize what that was that brought me to both of those professions,

[00:56:06] to those trades and why I was obsessed with them.

[00:56:10] Yeah.

[00:56:10] It's, it's a huge part of it for me.

[00:56:13] Yeah.

[00:56:15] Have you ever, I, have you ever read or listened to, I listened to it.

[00:56:20] Russell's Russell Brands Recovery.

[00:56:23] No, it's very good.

[00:56:25] I've never, my addictions are codependency food.

[00:56:30] What else?

[00:56:31] My phone really, if I'm being honest, like it's rough, which shout out to you.

[00:56:37] I know that you had announced a whole like month that you were going to be off the grid

[00:56:42] with your family, which is really cool.

[00:56:44] That was wild.

[00:56:45] We can talk about that if you want.

[00:56:47] Yeah, no, no.

[00:56:49] Well, he talks about the reason why they call it recovery is you're recovering something

[00:56:56] that was lost that you kind of did to yourself and that you resubmitted yourself to like digging

[00:57:02] this hole in your own, your own addiction.

[00:57:06] You know, like the whole like admitting that you have a problem.

[00:57:11] He basically goes through the 12 steps and he talks about them at length and what his

[00:57:16] experience was.

[00:57:17] And then also how to like wrap your head around what's happening, you know, actively and how

[00:57:24] to look at it and why it's so powerful and why.

[00:57:28] And he was approaching it from a very secular point.

[00:57:31] You know what?

[00:57:32] I did read that book years ago.

[00:57:35] That was when he was still an atheist.

[00:57:37] Yes.

[00:57:38] And I remember, so I was, my long-term partner was an alcoholic in recovery.

[00:57:46] And he showed me that book.

[00:57:49] My, my issue is also codependence.

[00:57:52] Um, and I feel like there's so much of like discussing tattooing that like is caught up

[00:57:59] in that, that I can't untangle the two.

[00:58:02] Like, I can't tell you my story without discussing my issues with codependence, you know?

[00:58:08] Um, but I remember reading that book and just thinking like, you know, um, my partner at

[00:58:14] the time was very into the 12 step program.

[00:58:17] And at the time I was really uncomfortable about all the God stuff.

[00:58:21] I was like, wow, this is really in there.

[00:58:22] And he was like, well, check out this book.

[00:58:24] And I remember reading it and thinking like, man, he sure is doing a lot of like double

[00:58:28] reverse backflips to avoid the, like to circumvent the G word.

[00:58:33] And that's kind of all I really remember about the book.

[00:58:36] And I just think it's so interesting.

[00:58:37] Russell Brand story arc of now coming, um, to faith.

[00:58:41] And that was not, it was something he's seen.

[00:58:45] It seemed like it was knocking on his door and he was like, not, not yet, not yet, not

[00:58:52] yet, you know, for, for quite some time.

[00:58:54] Well, you know, in a, in a grand way, cause I know you and I have a lot of, um, geopolitical

[00:59:01] views in mind and, and are similar in that way.

[00:59:04] I think that's a lot of the reasons why you see, um, when people don't accept God and they

[00:59:13] don't accept that framework, why they make the state their God, or they make the cultish

[00:59:20] kind of mind, you know, like it's a cult kind of thing that happens when you, um, you know,

[00:59:29] like when, when you have to fall into a program, when you have to admit to yourself that the

[00:59:34] things that you yourself have been doing alone don't work, but you're not ready to admit

[00:59:40] or walk into God, you seek it in other things.

[00:59:44] And you'll make those things, your God and those things you're, you're, you're defining

[00:59:50] factors and your program.

[00:59:52] And I think that that's what has happened to a lot of people in our, in the United States

[00:59:59] anyway, that I can tell is that, you know, your experience of walking away from a very

[01:00:05] religious family, because I think that's what plagues a lot of people is that.

[01:00:09] And in my experience too, my, my, my family was secular, but it was strict.

[01:00:14] Like I had to break free of it because it was so controlling.

[01:00:18] So in that regard, I can definitely understand, but I think the thing that helped me was that

[01:00:24] my parents were willing to be my God.

[01:00:26] They were willing to be the judges.

[01:00:28] They were willing to be hated.

[01:00:29] They were willing to all that.

[01:00:32] And so I had to break from them, which I think every child should have to, you know, leave,

[01:00:40] you know, if that's the reason you leave, good, cool.

[01:00:43] You know, you're like you said, the spite it's going to fuel you.

[01:00:48] Like I can't go back.

[01:00:50] Yes.

[01:00:51] Totally.

[01:00:52] Yeah.

[01:00:53] But I do, I, I feel a lot of people that like right now, like they just, um, they, they,

[01:01:00] they fall into this idea that the state should be their God and, um, or whatever ideological

[01:01:07] thing that they're convinced of, like that is their defining religion, if you will.

[01:01:14] And, and it's because we're, we're human.

[01:01:17] And then we need those things like to give meaning to our lives.

[01:01:21] Otherwise it would just get really dark very quickly.

[01:01:24] Yeah.

[01:01:25] I, I couldn't agree with you more.

[01:01:27] That's something I've been thinking a lot about.

[01:01:29] And I get asked this question all the time.

[01:01:33] Um, people are like, well, how, how do you call yourself an anarchist and a Christian?

[01:01:39] You know, that seems like two conflicting ideas.

[01:01:43] And I'm like, actually, you know, I, I think that though.

[01:01:47] Not if you really read the gospel.

[01:01:48] Has really been, um, misappropriated intentionally, um, intentionally misappropriated.

[01:01:56] And to me, yeah, I think, well, no, not at all.

[01:02:00] It's like perfectly harmonious.

[01:02:03] Um, because for me, my fundamental, my fundamental belief, um, stems from the idea that, that we,

[01:02:12] like I said before, we have free will.

[01:02:14] But we were born with free will, we are free to make our own decisions.

[01:02:20] We are free to make our own choices, to think and live our lives.

[01:02:23] Not because the state mandates that, not because we have to petition for it, vote for it, or beg for it.

[01:02:31] But because God himself declared me a sovereign being.

[01:02:35] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:36] Yeah, you were creative with human dignity because you were created in his image.

[01:02:41] Oh, you froze for a second.

[01:02:43] Uh, there we go.

[01:02:44] Sorry, you froze on me for a second.

[01:02:46] I, I'm amazed.

[01:02:48] I'm amazed that hasn't happened sooner.

[01:02:50] I'm so out on the sticks.

[01:02:52] It has happened.

[01:02:53] I just keep rolling.

[01:02:54] Cool.

[01:02:55] Anyway, I just, uh, I think that, that we are, we are such religious, uh, creatures.

[01:03:04] And, and, and it's, it's funny to me that, you know, the people who are most afraid of

[01:03:09] the word religious to me are the most dogmatic.

[01:03:12] Mm-hmm.

[01:03:13] And, and I believe that we all have a master.

[01:03:16] We just can make the choice to consciously, um, define our master or not.

[01:03:23] Mm-hmm.

[01:03:23] And, and many of my secular friends will talk about all of the harms that have been done

[01:03:29] in the name of religion.

[01:03:32] And, um, yes, that's, that's some serious shit to contend with.

[01:03:37] Yeah.

[01:03:38] You know, um, but I also like the idea that, um, I think I read it in, in one of C.S.

[01:03:45] Lewis's books where he says that we are half flesh, half spirit.

[01:03:50] You know, humans are these funny beings, half animals, half spirit.

[01:03:54] And, um, and we're, we all are hypocrites and we all are fallible.

[01:04:00] We all, you know, but I think it's really important to be conscious of who your God is,

[01:04:07] because if you're not, then it is the state or alcohol or pornography or, you know, money.

[01:04:16] The gym.

[01:04:17] The gym.

[01:04:18] Yes.

[01:04:19] Right.

[01:04:20] At your church.

[01:04:22] Yeah.

[01:04:23] It doesn't even have to be like, you know, something that society would crap on.

[01:04:27] It's like, dude, you, you're worshiping a false idol.

[01:04:30] Right.

[01:04:31] Right.

[01:04:31] It's just, it's in our nature.

[01:04:33] It's so innate and we are.

[01:04:36] And to not be aware that I think is to our peril.

[01:04:40] I'm glad you brought it up again.

[01:04:42] Um, free choice is what I believe you do when you really love something not to be hacked,

[01:04:48] but you, uh, if you love it, you let it go, you know, and if it comes back to you, then,

[01:04:54] you know, the love is real because at that point, the, the being having experienced life

[01:05:02] without you realizes how good their love, you know, that their life was with you.

[01:05:07] And that's, that's the, I think the infinite wisdom and reason of why we were given free

[01:05:15] choice by God was that he didn't want to be a tyrant and he wanted to be loved.

[01:05:22] And like, if you read the Bible from that standpoint, you realize that it's just a love letter to

[01:05:27] humanity being like, this is all I asked.

[01:05:31] Like, it would be like, if you have a partner and they're telling you the things that they

[01:05:35] need most from you in order to, you know, be in this relationship and you just keep saying,

[01:05:42] no, no.

[01:05:44] Like, is that relationship going to last really long?

[01:05:46] Like all I need for you to do in order for me to be a little bit happier with this relationship

[01:05:53] is, um, you know, wash the dishes.

[01:05:57] And you're like, I'm not going to do that.

[01:06:00] Like you just keep doing these little things that like walk away, but like the free choices,

[01:06:06] choosing to come back to God and choosing to recommit yourself to building a relationship

[01:06:12] with God under the principles that he's already told you that he asked.

[01:06:17] And it's really not that much because the new covenant especially is like, believe in me

[01:06:23] and treat your neighbor as you would yourself.

[01:06:26] So that's the new covenant.

[01:06:28] And it's already assumes that all the rest is going to be adhered to, um, because the initial

[01:06:34] commandments were trying to take people out of a state of slavery and guide them about

[01:06:40] how to be good people, good people moving forward as free thinkers, as self-regulated beings.

[01:06:49] This is what I ask of you because this will proliferate the best good for anyone and a good

[01:06:56] society for my people.

[01:06:59] And so like when, when we get to the new covenant, it's like, yeah, you already know all that.

[01:07:03] Like, and you keep making, in fact, you're so great at self-regulating that you make up

[01:07:07] more rules.

[01:07:08] It's like, you've been making up all these other, I didn't even say you had to do that.

[01:07:12] Now, now you're saying you got to do this.

[01:07:14] Like, what's this?

[01:07:17] And it was like, Jesus was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:07:21] We're not wavering from the law.

[01:07:23] Let me tell you what the law was.

[01:07:26] Like you've made up all this other crap.

[01:07:29] Like that isn't, that isn't what I've asked.

[01:07:32] I've asked this.

[01:07:34] Right.

[01:07:35] And so I, I feel you in the anarchy kind of thing, because I think that your spirit is

[01:07:41] much about how the people of, you know, those eras, when Christ came back, we're feeling

[01:07:48] like there was such a separation of socioeconomic groups of religious people who were really

[01:07:57] intertwined with like the power structure of the day.

[01:08:01] You know, there was great, great abuse, you know, slavery, oppression.

[01:08:07] And, you know, like there was, you know, conflicting understandings about what is God and, and,

[01:08:14] and how to follow this kind of thing.

[01:08:18] And I think that was what, I think that's very where we are today.

[01:08:25] Where we see, I'm studying the constitution right now.

[01:08:30] Great course.

[01:08:32] And it shows you like, you're going to be called an anarchist.

[01:08:36] You're going to be called, you know, a rebel or radical.

[01:08:41] But all we are is trying to restore actually.

[01:08:45] And I've seen those efforts with you too, you know, taking old furniture and like restoring

[01:08:51] it and making it new again.

[01:08:52] And that's what like artists we regularly are about.

[01:08:55] And that's what that healing is that you're talking about is the restoration, that recovery

[01:09:00] of something that was taken and corrupted and perverted into what it is not anymore.

[01:09:08] And, um, yeah.

[01:09:10] So, and it's amazing to me how much people, I mean, I just met a girl the other day that

[01:09:16] was like the declaration of independence needs to be burned and shred to ash.

[01:09:21] And I was like, what?

[01:09:24] I like, it was everything in me to be like, just get out of this fucking country now, like

[01:09:31] leave now, then leave.

[01:09:33] And also, also thank God for our bill of rights and the declaration of independence that allows

[01:09:42] you to be a free being in this country to state your stupid convoluted ideas.

[01:09:47] I fully support your right to make your ridiculous ideas.

[01:09:52] No, because dumb ideas die in the sunlight.

[01:09:55] It's true.

[01:09:55] They proliferate in the dark.

[01:09:57] True.

[01:09:58] I agree.

[01:09:58] And I think like, I didn't say that to her.

[01:10:02] I wanted to, I didn't say it.

[01:10:04] I was like, you haven't read it.

[01:10:06] You haven't read it.

[01:10:07] And then I just quoted the actual thing.

[01:10:09] And I was like, if you can read that and, and literally think that that kind of document

[01:10:15] that says those words should be burnt to ash.

[01:10:20] I just don't think that you understand the English language then.

[01:10:23] Like, I don't, I don't know what you, you were taught a very, um, propagandistic.

[01:10:30] And I also think that like propaganda is boring and like, we don't remember any of the shit

[01:10:36] that we were taught as kids because it was intentionally boring.

[01:10:40] Yeah.

[01:10:40] And so like, like I'm also getting back into all of this stuff that I never really properly

[01:10:46] learned.

[01:10:46] And I homeschool my children.

[01:10:48] So we're, we're learning this stuff together.

[01:10:50] My four year old and eight year old are taking college courses with me on American history.

[01:10:56] Cause why not?

[01:10:56] Like why, who says we have to do preschool the way people do preschool?

[01:11:00] We can, you know, take a college course together.

[01:11:03] It's fine.

[01:11:04] Like my daughter might be able to pick out a few letters and she might retain 3% of it.

[01:11:10] And my son might retain 10% of it, but who cares?

[01:11:13] It's great.

[01:11:14] We're, we're having fun.

[01:11:15] And you're doing it together, which is, I think what most children crave at the end of

[01:11:19] their childhood is like, did they have time with their parents?

[01:11:23] You know?

[01:11:24] Yeah.

[01:11:24] But it's very critical.

[01:11:26] All I was going to say is real history is so fucking cool.

[01:11:32] It's so fascinating.

[01:11:33] It's so wild and exciting.

[01:11:36] It's stranger than fiction.

[01:11:37] It's so interesting.

[01:11:38] And it's, it's sad that, that, that person, um, you know, had that idea and said that too,

[01:11:46] because she didn't read it, but she didn't know the context behind it or, or she wouldn't

[01:11:50] have been so flippant about it.

[01:11:52] She's probably unfortunately been told, you know, just, um, just the, the negative aspects

[01:11:59] of our history that, that paint it in a one-sided light.

[01:12:03] And there's plenty of that, but you know, like you go to any country, you study any culture

[01:12:09] and we all have blood on our hands, blood on our soil.

[01:12:12] We, we all are the descendants of slaves and tyrants and peasants and farmers and, you know,

[01:12:19] good people and bad people.

[01:12:21] That's, that's like, that's what history is.

[01:12:23] Yeah.

[01:12:23] Yeah.

[01:12:24] See, it's absolutely.

[01:12:27] Absolutely.

[01:12:28] Yeah.

[01:12:28] I'm sorry.

[01:12:29] We, we, I keep doing this with you because you're so much fun to talk to.

[01:12:32] I can't wait to hang out with you.

[01:12:34] I need to come and like, visit you and just hang out.

[01:12:36] We had talked very long ago about possibly syncing up and doing some tattoo conventions,

[01:12:42] which would be dope.

[01:12:43] Um, I know.

[01:12:45] Yeah.

[01:12:46] I mean, no, we'll keep this train going.

[01:12:52] All right.

[01:12:53] Diary listeners.

[01:12:54] Again, I, I got carried away.

[01:12:57] I had so much fun meeting and talking to Allie.

[01:13:01] Um, really, uh, we have been, uh, Facebook friends for a while and, uh, just grown in

[01:13:10] fondness for each other for a long time.

[01:13:12] So I, forgive me if I really bogarted this entire, this entire time.

[01:13:18] I really just had so much fun talking with Allie.

[01:13:22] I hope that the, uh, the time can be appreciated.

[01:13:25] And there's some interesting things that all of you have gained from listening to this podcast.

[01:13:31] I know it wasn't super informative about Allie's first years, uh, tattooing.

[01:13:38] I, uh, I would like to get more of that information from her.

[01:13:41] We, we don't circle back to many of the things that we meant to.

[01:13:46] Um, but yeah, Allie is a really awesome person and, uh, does a lot of things that I

[01:13:55] admire and find kind of terrifying at the same time, which kind of goes back to the whole

[01:14:01] piercing the veil thing and living in West Virginia.

[01:14:06] Um, but I do, I really want to go and get tattooed by her at some point in her tree house

[01:14:12] and, uh, experience that continue to pierce the veil.

[01:14:16] If nothing else, pierce some skin and collect a really awesome tattoo.

[01:14:21] Um, my hope is that you will follow Allie.

[01:14:24] She is, uh, her Instagram handle is oxenblood.

[01:14:28] Uh, just how you think it's spelled O X E N B L O O D.

[01:14:35] Uh, oxenblood and, uh, you will get to see how talented she is, but also, um, get a sense

[01:14:41] of her humor and style and, and it's multifaceted.

[01:14:44] It's very, very cool.

[01:14:45] She is very, very cool.

[01:14:48] And, uh, I appreciate you, Allie, very, very much.

[01:14:51] Uh, this was a lot of your time and I feel blessed.

[01:14:55] Thank you listeners.

[01:14:56] Thank you, Allie.

[01:14:57] Have a powerful week, everyone.

[01:14:59] And we'll catch you for the conclusion next week.

[01:15:02] Later.

[01:15:08] Thanks for listening.

[01:15:09] You can find the Apprenticeship Diaries on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

[01:15:13] Our IG is the underscore apprenticeship underscore diaries.

[01:15:17] If you would like to offer constructive criticism or an interview, drop us an email at

[01:15:22] theapprenticeshipdiaries at gmail.com.

[01:15:24] We look forward to hearing from our listeners.

[01:15:27] Thank you.