Diary Entry 253. "Can't Stop Won't Stop!" (2:3 with Ken Madden)

[00:00:00] Go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Hello and happy Tuesday Diary listeners. This is the second piece of our time with Ken Madden and I'm calling this second half, which I think I can inform you at this stage that this is gonna go on for another week because Ken and I, we just, we love each other so much and we're such nerds, we can't, we can't stop.

[00:00:25] So that's why I'm calling the second piece of this three part diary entry. Can't stop. Won't stop. Enjoy listeners. Go, go, go, go. Welcome to The Apprenticeship Diaries where raw meets refined. Let's be real. We're still working on refined. What it took, what it takes and the stories that are made. Join us as we learn from professionals about how their stories begin.

[00:00:52] I had a similar thing with a woman and it wasn't, um, it was a matter of me undercharging. One. And two, it was me painting something that I did not like painting. And she, she really, she really heard about it. Don't you, don't you, don't you just usually undercharge for that? I am so guilty of it. I don't really feel like doing it though. So I think I'll charge less than I normally pay.

[00:01:23] She had caught me, we were on a plane and she, I met her and she had a crap ton of money, man. Like, so I, um, you know, she was telling me about her family and, you know, kind of businesses they ran. And I was like, Oh shit. Um, but you know, I don't, I don't abuse people based on their money, you know, like that they make.

[00:01:45] It was just, she, she showed me a picture of a home and, and she was like, I would really like to have this house painted. It's it's for a friend of mine who had to move from this place, but this was our place and this was their place. And it means a lot. And, and I was like, yeah, sure. And I just looked at it and I undercut it. It wasn't that I, I just, I've tattooed so long that that's the thing I know.

[00:02:12] That's the, that's the system. That's the time. I know that to do an oil painting of something that I don't typically do. Yeah. Architecture. I don't see you as an architectural artist. I know you can do it beautifully. I am really fucking good, but I hate it. Yeah. I hate every moment and it sucks that I'm so good at it because she wanted more. And that's the worst.

[00:02:42] And I was like, she was like, please, please. I promise next time it's not going to be so involved. And I was like, I don't think you can pay me enough. I'm sorry. And she tried to get me again. And she's like, do you have anybody that you know that can do it like you? And I was like, not like me, but I can give you a few people's names. I was like, I'm just, and it was before I met you. And I'm sure you could have done a beautiful job.

[00:03:10] But like, she was like, she's like, I'll pay you a finder fee. Like she felt so bad because she was good. And I had, I had really undercharged her and she knew it. She knew she got a good deal, but she wasn't going to give me more because she's a savvy businesswoman. And she wasn't going to give me more than I asked. And I didn't expect her to. I was just like, I told her, I was like, honestly, I was hitting this painting by the end of it. Like literally pounding it with the paint being like, please, for the love of God, be done.

[00:03:37] And it worked out because it was so much foliage that by the time I was hitting it kind of created like that, that fuzzy foreground to like focus. Yeah. So it's all worked out. I'm so mad. Oh, that's fun. But yeah, I, um, yeah, she, she, she was like, please. And I said, I can't, I can't.

[00:04:04] Well, she always contacted me like a month before the due date too, which I was just like, Oh my God, I'm going to need a lot of time to process this. You're going to have to give me a leaf in a month to psych myself up for this. Yeah. Maybe if you give me a little more time, but yeah, I, I really enjoyed her. Um, but I made a vow after that I was like, the only house I'm ever going to paint from here on out is my mom's. And cause she's wanted it forever and I've done it for a couple people now as a commission.

[00:04:32] And she's like, you'll do it for other people, but you won't do it for me. And I'm like, all right. All right. I got you. I'm like, all right. I'm kind of with you on that stuff. I, I'm really good at architecture and painting and drawing and stuff. It's mechanical stuff. And I always get excited to do it until I start doing it. And I'm like, Oh, it's so many lines. It's sad. Like at least with a car, there's like, there's curves.

[00:05:02] It's sexy. It like you have different textures and there's sheens and stuff, but like architecture, it's just very, very straight. And, and, and the minute you go off, it really looks off and you really have to be. It doesn't have to get too far off. I'm looking at over the side of when I was working on today. So I'm doing a Lamborghini and I, I placed the car in front of the Lamborghini factory in Italy. And I find myself the architecture part of it.

[00:05:32] You know, I like how it's coming out and it'll be fine. But what I'm really excited about is the glass. Yeah. Because the glass reflects and I love painting reflections. Yes. And that's why I like doing cars because everything's reflective. Yeah. It adds so much to it. And that's what really gives it that 3d kind of like, you know, illusion. And you just don't have that with, with houses unless they're made out of metal. Yeah. But the glass is there.

[00:06:00] So if I, I just, I kind of, I, I do all the siding and the roof and all that just enough to get to the glass. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, I did, I did a drawing for a guy a year ago. He had two old hot rods, like a 30, 38 Chevy and a 39 Ford really cool. And he had a cool garage that was like, it was like an L shaped garage with beautiful, like the cement there, you know, for the driveway.

[00:06:25] So I had them, we put the cars and position the cars that took, you know, a bunch of images and stuff like that uses reference. And I, the car is just rocked. And I'm like, like, this is gonna be so cool to have it by his garage. And I'm like, all I wanted to do was draw the trees behind the garage. The cars in front of the garage, just not the garage, you know, all the siding every, cause like you said, siding, you can't just suggest it and go away when you're doing a realistic drawing.

[00:06:52] And you know, foliage in the background, you can kind of suggest it here and there. And it's just, it'll, it'll read as foliage. Yes. But siding and brick are siding and brick, and they just have to be what they have to be. Siding and brick. Yep. Yep. I've developed a style where I kind of, I set everything in the background, just like two notches lower in detail than the foreground.

[00:07:18] So the, but because of that, everything just jumps off the page. Yeah. So the car itself that's parked in front of this thing. Yes. It came out really, really cool. The guy was like, loved it, which I'll never get sick of that. Yeah. Just that, you know, it's the same, like when I design a new product and the product comes in and I open the box for the first sample of production. And I'm still a nine year old at Christmas morning. I mean, I've done hundreds of products. I've got dozens and dozens of patents.

[00:07:47] I've done all this stuff and still, Ooh, look at this cool little thing I made. Yeah. No, I love it. It's a disease. Yeah. You have to create. Well, it's a gift. Like, you know, going back to God. Like I, I love that now that I, um, I mean, you know, I never felt like it was mine. I just felt like it was something I accessed.

[00:08:12] And, you know, in the beginning, you always, you find identity through being the artist. Cause everybody gives that to you and they give it to you and it becomes your special thing. But, um, and there is a break from that. And I think that really did happen for me when I started coming to God was just this. I always called it my God sense. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:37] But when I started, you know, trying to farm a relationship with God, then I realized what, what it was. And, and, and now I, when everybody's like, you're so talented, um, I'm just like, I'm, I'm gifted. It's, it's a gift. Um, I say the same thing. It's not talent. You know, you, you can, you can train talent and you can all that.

[00:09:00] But what I have is an obsession that comes from some other place that is just, and it's like, it's a gift. It's something that like, when I am able to, if I see something, I can just reverse engineer it. And I can figure out if I can get my hands on, I can figure it out. I think the gift, except I've thought about this a lot as I get older, the, you know, because people talk, you know, people my age start talking about retirement.

[00:09:29] And I'm like, I'm incapable. I don't want to do it. I'm incapable of this, of stop creating. I'm incapable of it. Yeah. Why? You and me are exactly the same way in that way. I can tell it just, we can't, we can't look at anything ever and not think about how to recreate it, how to improve it, how to capture the moment of it, if it's essence or all that kind of thing. You know, my latest thing I'm now it's, you know, I grew up in Boston.

[00:09:57] I was on Cape Cod a lot by the ocean and there's something moving in me that wants to do more water, you know? And so for the last year I've done, like, if you've seen what I've put online, people want me to draw their cars and they just, they just want a car. If you draw this car for my uncle or this was my dad's car, I've been putting everything in front of a lake or the ocean. Because I'm like. A body of water. I'm putting water behind this if it kills me.

[00:10:28] And, you know, just, and then I, and then again, I go back to, I feel like Trump. It was tremendous. I go back to Darren, Darren Reed, I think is his name. Anyway, the people that I look to as artists that I find to be absolutely incredible at what I'm doing. And there's five or six, they're all women, oil painters that do nothing but oceans and water scenes.

[00:10:58] I'm just blown away, but I look at them. I'm like, I see what they're doing. Oh, this makes perfect sense. I will, you know, in the world of art, you know, people say, oh, you're so talented. I'm like, no, no, no. You don't understand. It's, it's not talent. It's, it's a drive and it's absolutely an insatiable hunger. It's more like scientific, honestly, because it's more about like, so a friend of mine, she said, she's really into nature. And I said, well, that's God's most epic painting is nature.

[00:11:27] So I understand why you're into nature. It's stunning. It's perfect. It's like the most perfect, beautiful, interconnected painting you've ever seen. And I said, I get that. I get that. But I, I love the copy of the copy. Cause I love what human beings do with their view. I love the dissection.

[00:11:52] I love what, what is filtered through the human mind and is able to come out. Impressionism. Yes. Yes. Mary Cassatt of just. Yes. Chunks of color here and there, but wow. Yeah. I mean, just any iteration of it. Um, you know, music has that too. Yeah. Um, you know, that taps more emotionality and things like that, you know, uh, all, all of

[00:12:18] it dance, you know, just us communing with everything we feel and experience around us and trying to, um, I liked the word we had mentioned it when we were texting the word Israel wrestling with God. Mm hmm. That's what I consider it now. It's my wrestle with God. Um, it's me trying to cipher my life and it's the place that I go and I don't meditate. It's a moving meditation.

[00:12:45] I, I hack it's, it's a place of stillness and contemplation and, and analysis. And it really is scientific. It's just doing a, doing a rep, doing an experiment to see and what will happen, you know? And just like, I, like you said, I don't ever want to stop creating. Like how, how, how, I don't know. I want to stop. I'm going to have to be put out of it. You're I'm going to have to be put down. Exactly.

[00:13:14] For that to happen. You know, and my, my mom and my dad are the same way. My mom, thank God she's still with us. 93 years old. She's cool too. She is cool. She's cool lady. And she's, she wants to take up acrylic painting. So I'm going to help her with that. I'll be down there in April. You'll get her some supplies, but she's been doing watercolors for years. She's the mother that she's like, um, I never bought you coloring books. Cause I didn't want to, I didn't want you to be constrained to coloring in the line. So she, I never had a coloring book growing up.

[00:13:44] She was, you draw your own. And now you make your own. And now I make my own. Yeah. Which is, which is funny. And she's got those now. And it's funny. Cause she's like, I, even the coloring book I made, she looks like she was, oh, this is, oh, these are so great. She loved the drawing. She was, I'll never use it. I'll never color in here. Cause I like to create my own. Oh, which I thought was awesome. And she, she, she has watercolors and colored pencil. And you know, if, if she had, it's one of those things, if she had followed that, you

[00:14:13] know, at 93 years old, she's, she draws a flower. It's a beautiful flower. It's a nice rendition of a flower. Her watercolor skills are pretty good, but never studied, never did it all her life. So a real amateur artist, but there's such a beauty to it. So now I can take it. And when I work with her, I'm like, oh, try this mom and try that. And she's like, oh yeah, well, that makes so much sense. You know, to be able to give that back to her where she had done that for my whole life and my poor parents, all I did was draw cars.

[00:14:41] That's I drew wheels of cars, trucks, motorhomes, sometimes spaceships and tanks blowing each other. But mostly cars. And, and I remember when I went to, I went to Minneapolis College Art and Design. And one of the great things they did at that school, and I was there in 87, 88 for my freshman year, was they run you through everything. They say, you were going to go through everything that is art in the school. I mean, right through papermaking, woodworking, welding, drawing, everything.

[00:15:12] Awesome. I, it's the reason why I got into product design because I never even knew that that was a thing. I was going to go there for illustration. I'm like, oh, I can make models too. I like making things. Anyway. So one of the things we had to do was combine two, and it was a woodworking class. It was just to learn the tools. You have to, you have to take two things and combine them. So me being lazy, because the other thing we are is lazy. It's a, I took an alarm clock. You want something done, give it to a lazy person.

[00:15:41] They'll figure out the fastest way. Damn straight. So I said, I'm going to do an alarm clock with the little bells, you know, the old school alarm clock, the handle, little bells on top of the feet in a air dryer. Cause I'm like, I can just easily make an alarm clock, stick up the handle on it and a tube coming out the end of the look. I think, well, I would have done a hand holding an ax and just had an ax. That would have been a good one. So anyway, it was, it's this wooden clock alarm clock with the things on it.

[00:16:09] And I brought this home and my dad had never seen me make anything ever, ever like that. And he was like, this is incredible. Cause he's done some woodworking and stuff. And he's like, how did you do, you know, we had every tool and you can imagine the shot. And he thought it was really cool. And I, you know, I had, I brought the drawings cause I had all these drawings from drawing classes. And we had to do, um, did you ever have to do the blind contours? Yeah. Okay. Draw this person, but you can't look at what you're doing. Yeah.

[00:16:39] And you just sit there and do it like this. Yeah. And it's amazing how you can capture stuff that way. Because, and I thought it was a stupid thing, but it really changed the way you look at things. Cause you're like, I got to move my hand like this. And then there's the other eyebrow. And you know, you always end up with this goofy picture. You do. But the whole point is a lot of people, they, they go off of what's in their head. They don't draw what they see.

[00:17:05] So the point of that is no, you should be looking at your reference more than you are your own paper. And it's to keep your hand, you know, your, your hand eye coordination skills, very attuned to, no, I gotta, I have my eye and my hand have to be connected. And it has to be connected in a way that I'm not even looking half the time. I'm, I'm looking back, looking back and like, I'm moving as I'm doing it. Right.

[00:17:33] Which is sucky when you're tattooing, because if you learn how to draw like that, you also learn how to tattoo. And when your apprentice says, what's going on here? Can you even see? I'm like, Nope. But I can feel it. It's. I guess I'm going to grab it. I'm going to grab. I'm going to grab it. Cause it's right here next to me. Yeah. This is what exactly what I was doing today. So this is what I was working on today. Right. So this is this.

[00:18:02] Oh, it's beautiful. Right. So cool. When I'm doing like the hood on this. All I'm doing is thinking about clouds. Yeah. Because the picture of the hood was just flat. It was just straight red. It was a cloudy day. That was a perfect overclass day. So it was like, Nope. And I'm like, I put clouds up here. Yeah. And I'm like, all right, how do these feel if they're on the hood of the car? Yeah. And that's what I was. It's all feel. That's awesome. And it's the same with that little flag there.

[00:18:32] Yeah. Yeah. The Italian flag was just, you know, where do I see through it? Where do I, where do I not see through it? Where's the dark and the light? And it's all, can I feel like the silkiness of the. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I wasn't drawing at all what I saw there because what I saw was an awful picture on the internet of a fricking flag. Yeah. When I'm doing cars, I'm, it's hard to explain to people. I'm feeling the power.

[00:19:02] I'm feeling the, the, the visceral noise of the engine, the, the, the, the way the rubber sits on the ground and the tire gets a little flat on the bottom. Cause there's weight there and there's something to it. And when it moves, then it changes a little bit. And yeah, but I don't think that like, that's not what I'm thinking, but that's all in my head. Yeah. Because I'm passionate about that. And that's why, when I draw a house, I'm like, and here's one line of siding and here's another line of siding. Can we get to the windows where it's fun?

[00:19:33] I think I would be good with like a, like a Kinkade cottage. Cause they've, they seem fun. Cause they're, they're gnarly, you know, like, and they have the light coming out and they got the little, you know what I'm saying? Like that might be different because they're, they're fun. There's a lot of color. There's a lot of foliage and it's not, you don't have a lot of the, you know, the thing I hate, I hate Bob Ross's freaking cabins.

[00:20:03] I hate them. They're awful. They're always the same. Do you want to do that? I'm like, Bob, stop messing up your painting. Yeah. Yeah. Just leave it out. Do you remember there was a guy before Bob Ross? He was another, he had a foreign accent. I think it was from Germany. Older guy, short, brilliant painter and same shtick. Oh, we're going to put you in a little, we're going to put a little pressure in blue here and a little happy little house.

[00:20:31] But, but he was like, Bob Ross. I never watched him. I just recently I have because then I started doing videos on, on, on YouTube and stuff. People go, Oh, you're like Bob Ross. I'm like, no, I'm not like Bob Ross. But anyway, cause he was kind of, it was oil painting parlor tricks work. You can get an oil painting. You and me could sit down with a class of, of, of, of men and women with a bottle of

[00:20:58] wine and have them create a beautiful scene, winter scene with trees and mountains. And it's the easiest thing in the world to do because there's no wrong. Right. You know, it's different than the masters and Bob Ross was just really great at showing people. This is what's great about him. He got people to start. Yes. Most people didn't go anywhere with him, but some people did. And he got people to start. So I'll never say anything bad about Bob Ross, but I, I, I watched his stuff and I'm, I think the same thing.

[00:21:28] I'm like, Oh, that's the same tree. That was in every single other painting you've ever done. I mean, the trees and everything, like they seem, they seem real, but his cabins never do. Cause what he always does is he like scrapes in this like black hole of a door. And it's like the most simple. Yeah. It's like the, the little cubes that my mom used to just sketch, you know, you'd sketch on like when you're on the phone with somebody and you're like doodling and that, that, that

[00:21:57] 3d cube frame that was all of his cabins. And then we're like, and they were all the same. And I was just like, dude, could you just do some other form of architecture than this? Like, like some other form of architecture. Don't, don't mess up this beautiful landscape that you just painted with a stupid cabin. Can the cabinet of, can you put the ruins of a cabinet that may be burned down or that would be cool to have a little, then you could have a story to tell. Cause he was great at telling stories.

[00:22:27] And I liked his fences. Like I, I, when he put architectural kind of stuff and I liked his fences, like his little fence. Yep. And I liked his little paths that he would make. And I would like how he would layer things and he'd create different like layers to the landscape. And he always worked them from the back to the front, like all those things, like they all made sense. And they were until I got to the cabin. And I was like, Rico always yells at me. He's like, don't you dare argue with the world's greatest painter.

[00:22:57] What have you done? Amy. Oh, isn't that like, that is Bob Ross. You're talking to right now. And I was like, screw his cabins. Yeah. He does the worst cabins. I was like, I will give him a lot of other things, but screw his cabins. He was a very sweet man. I love the fact that he always said, God bless at the end. It will. I, I love what he did. Yeah. I love what he did. It's not my style. It's not my thing. It's not my shtick. But, um, he got people.

[00:23:27] It's just like, uh, American chopper, orange county choppers, that TV show. Yeah. It was, I've worked in bike shops. I worked there for years. I'm in the motorcycle industry. It was awful. Yeah. But that's what it was like working in bike shops a lot of times. And what they did is got a tons of tens of thousands of people into motorcycles. Yep. Same with the tattoo shows. Yeah. It was all at the same time. Mm-hmm. Like I said, a lot of the same clients. Yeah.

[00:23:56] In fact, I was just at Barrett Jackson at the auction down in Scottsdale. Uh-huh. And inked had a huge display in the middle of it. Yeah. Yeah. And they had, they had probably, I want to say five or six artists. They're working right there on the spot. Nice. Um, I was there to talk to the artists and painters. Mm-hmm. It was so busy in the ink thing. I never got a chance to talk to any of those guys. I wanted to, but I did some interviews.

[00:24:23] I put them up on my YouTube page, um, of these different artists that were there. A lot of these people have been coming, these guys and gals been coming for 10, 15, 18 years to this thing and showing the display. But it was, you know, you go to people's websites and you never know how much they charge. You never know, all right, am I charging too much? Am I charging? It's art. So I'm walking in there and Tom Fritz, um, it's Tom, it's Fritz TV.

[00:24:52] I don't know if you're familiar with him. Mm-hmm. Un. Yes. Just. Unbelievable. Mind blowing understanding of light and shadow. Yeah. And the humblest motherfucker you'd ever meet. Yeah. This guy, I walked up to him and I'm like, Hey, I'm Joe Schmo with a freaking iPhone camera and a microphone. Can I have an interview with you? I'd like, you know. Yeah. And, uh, he's like, yeah, sure. And I, you know, I, I, I talked to him a little bit beforehand. I said, look at, I've got a print of yours. You saw it. It's that print.

[00:25:22] It's up by the kitchen and it's got the hot rod sitting by the fence. And the guy's talking to the guy in the tractor. Yeah. And he's like, he's run out of gas and he's in parked in like a field of posies. It's brilliant. And I'm like, I've got this print of yours. And now I've got, I got this print like 25 years ago and I traded an art broker that sold automotive art. And this is, this is a real signed original nice Oak frame. I got it just the way you saw it is beautiful.

[00:25:49] And I did a drawing of his Nova station wagon for it, you know? Oh, that's cool. And it's just a print. It's not an original, but I, you know, he, and so I was telling Tom the story and he's like, wait, you have one of those. That was my first print that I released. I'm like, are you kidding me? Whoa. Hold up. So all of a sudden. It's so cool when you make those connections. Yeah. It was all of a sudden he was like, wait, cause I explained it to him exactly. I'm like, I don't know if you remember this one. It's the guy and stuff.

[00:26:15] It's 10 32 Fords, get the road, just get the white walls and the baby cat. There's he's on a Ford tractor by the fence at the Bob. He's like, that was my dad. That was, I used as a model for driving for the car. And the guy in the tractor was my grandfather. Wow. That makes it so special. You know, you know, instant, you know me. I'm a slap. So instantly I'm just, I'm just like holding it back, man. I'm just like, I'm trying to do an interview. You and your dad's connection. And just having that be like the first print.

[00:26:44] And it's the one you have, you did it for a trade. That is really, I mean, God, that's a, that's a God sent moment. To me, that's a God moment. I'm talking to him and he's walking me around. And it was one of those fan girl moments. If you watch the interview, you'll, you'll hear it. Cause I did five or six interviews and most of the artists, well, other than him, I'd never heard anybody else. They were all great, but it was just, that was more of a colleague. This was like, I've met my hero.

[00:27:14] Cause he's one of my heroes in art. And I'm like, wow. And he's also doing paintings there. So he's like, people do this to me too. And I'm like, I don't, I don't see it. Like, how do you get done this so fast? You just did. He's like, well, he had three paintings he had done. And he had started at the show. They were small, but like, you know, fricking brilliant. And he's working on it and he just dips his paint and does this thing. And I'm like, I mean, I know how to do that. I can watch.

[00:27:43] I know, I know exactly what you're doing yet. Can't do it. Well, you know, it's a, it's just, it makes you come, it makes you come back and just get after it and just like, wow. It's just reps. Yeah. I want to be better. I want to, you know, in the, in, at some point I wanted to impress my parents. I, I'll be honest.

[00:28:12] I wanted to do art that, you know, I wanted to do a drawing of a car that would so impress my parents that they'd hang it on their wall. And that happened when I was in college. Cause I was working, drawing cars during the summer. This is late eighties, early nineties. And I did one picture of a 1931 Ford Model X. Cause I knew that that's the car my dad got his license in. He learned to drive in a 1930, you know, he was born in 1930 and his parents were broke.

[00:28:40] So, you know, in 1945, 46, he'd learn to drive. It was an old Ford. Anyway, I did this drawing. I spent, you know, you have those breakthrough works where you're just like, Ooh, I get it. It was the one where I figured out how to put blue, a reflection of the sky blue in a black fender with clouds. Yeah. I figured it out. I was like, yeah. I'm like, Oh, I know how to do it now. Yeah. I did it. Got it all done. And I would use that at car shows to sell other work.

[00:29:09] You know, I'd go to car shows and I'd open the hood of my car and I'd, you know, I'd have a little trunk gallery. I still do it. It's awesome. So my favorite thing to do. And he saw that drawing. And man, when I went back to school, he's like, I'm going to keep this. I, you know, it got a little raggedy around the edge. I was going to throw it out, you know, cause after two seasons of running through, you'll get wet once. Yeah. Nope. He put it in a matted frame and stuff. And that's still hanging in my mom's house. Oh, that's awesome. It was just in, in, it was like, wow.

[00:29:38] You know, I, I did something that was in, as I got older and when I started finding out about more about having faith, I was like, Oh wait, this is a whole new level of, I want someone to look at what I'm doing and saying, I've given you this gift. Use it. Yeah. Um, and so now I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying so hard to do, and I'm finding the part now. I mean, I get a good job. I got a really good job. We are a great company. I was one of the founders. It's, it's awesome.

[00:30:09] I, I get up every morning and I still like happy to go to work. That being said, all I want to do is paint. I mean, that's all. I just bought a four foot by five foot canvas so I could do something big. Nice. I'm excited. Have you done something that big? Like not that I've got, uh, I wonder if I mean, I know you've done cars. So like, so see that engine. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's, that's, um, that's two foot by three foot.

[00:30:39] Okay. So, and that's about three quarters of the way done. Honestly, I haven't put a brush to that in like nine months. Yeah. Well, you will, but I won't, or you won't. I will. No, I will. I never not. I never not finish, but like some of the ones I did on that wall there, like this, this is, uh, my cousin put up a Facebook, Facebook post of a bonfire that she had. And I was like, Oh, that's so cool. I'm going to paint it. And I did.

[00:31:06] Oh, and you know, this is where I, I, you talk about pricing and selling your art. It's like, well, I got a lot of time in that. Right. So I got a price on it for 500 bucks. Right. Mm-hmm. And it's like, Oh, when I do any show, it's the top one. Everyone looks at, wow, that's so good. No one wants to spend $500 at all. And I'm like, I've tried to even just say, well, you know what, if you want it and you look in your cabin, two 50 and it's yours. Cause what the hell I can make another one.

[00:31:36] Yeah. And they seem like nice people. Yeah. I don't know. It's like, yeah. Oh, okay. It's just fresh. I'm like, yeah, I am talented. I can do that. And you know, it, that's not worth $500. I'd spend $500. I've spent a lot more money on stupid crap than that. Yeah. Same, same. And then other people don't even blink an eye.

[00:32:04] Like you said, the lady that just was like, I don't care what it costs. Just do it. And you're like, I don't want to. Yeah, no. And that's, that's the thing is like, well, and, and that's, I was just telling a client of mine the other day, um, because I do think we have mentioned Liberty earlier.

[00:32:25] And I think that art is also really connected to that too, because, um, uh, because it's so free and because it's a moving meditation, you have to be very careful where it takes you. And I told my, you know, getting on the spiritual side of things. And, um, my client, he works for the government and he does software engineering and cybersecurity.

[00:32:53] And, um, very, very brilliant and very creative, but a different kind of language and usage. Um, and I said, you know, everybody thinks arts cute. And that's, that's the thing. Yes. It's easily dismissed. Um, because it's so cute. Cause they, you know, they always think about the Bob Ross painting and they always think about, you know, this, this beautiful fantasy land that we all live in, but they don't understand.

[00:33:22] They don't understand that if it wasn't for art, there would be no products. Correct. And, you know, I crossed that bridge. Yeah. And they don't, they don't understand the soul suck too. They don't understand the constant critique. Yeah. Cause you, in order to be good, you have to be ripped apart. You have to submit yourself. Yep. Continually to that kind of objection of the work.

[00:33:52] Like I put this price on it. I know what I put into it. And you're sitting there and being like, I like it, but not for that. And you have to, you have to hit that. Yeah. It's more than that. I like it. I have the money. I want it, but I'm not going to. Yes. Yes. Um, and going through art school, I stopped talking about it at some level because I just,

[00:34:18] the, the, the, I was so sick of the looks I would get when you explain to people how hard it is. And it's just like, no, no, no. You don't understand. Like if you make a napkin holder in eighth grade and you come home and your dad said, well, that could have been a lot better. I don't think that this is the way you would have done when you're proud of it. Yeah. It would have crushed you. Yeah. That's what you do in art school for four years. You don't do anything good because everything has to be in it. And if everything you did was really good, you went to a shitty art school. Right. Or you're like a savant.

[00:34:48] Right. You know, and, um, our school is like that. You know, I had friends that went to, um, art center in Pasadena, California for automotive design. He's like, that was the most brutal experience I have ever had. And if you look at undergraduate, um, like to, to, to get a doctorate, the number of hours you spend to get that degree is the same in art. It's the same. Yeah. Um, but. Except we don't get the price tag after. We don't get the price tag.

[00:35:17] Well, sometimes it depends. It depends on how you use it. You know, I, I got out, I made a, I got out and I got a job in design firm, like right out of school as a product designer. Wasn't making much money. And, um, we had a bad client and the client, uh, stiffed the company for like $50,000. Something had to go. And guess who's going to go? The new guy. So when I got canned, first time I ever got fired in my life, it destroyed me.

[00:35:44] And I remember coming home and the gas and electricity was shut off in my house too, because my roommates that I moved into off of like an ad in the paper, weren't paying the stuff. And so it was just one of those weeks, you know, you have those weeks in your life where you're like, could I, is there anything else that could go on? You don't ask that. Never ask that. Oh God. So, you know, all that crap happened, you know, and I paid my dues and I said, I am going to figure out how to do this myself. And really I was, you know, 19.

[00:36:14] So that would have been 92. So 93 through 97, I didn't make 10 grand a year. Yeah. Not 10. I try to explain to people. You it's not that long ago, guys. Living wasn't that much cheaper. I was living absolutely in poverty. Yes. Um, I had great parents. So if it was ever of, uh, of, you know, Hey, I need something and I need a hundred bucks. They'd send me a hundred bucks. Right. But if I needed a hundred bucks, they'd send me a hundred bucks. They wouldn't send me 2000.

[00:36:44] No. Um, and they helped where they could. So I did have an, I did have a safety net and I don't say this for any kind of pity. I say this cause this again, celebrate your trials because trials build perseverance. Perseverance builds, you know, strength in the Lord. Character. And character. And so I went from job to job and I ended up working at, I found this, uh, this guy wizard custom studios and he had a, he built custom cars and motorcycles and just a real old school,

[00:37:14] hippie, vegetarian, long haired. He looked like Jesus. He really, I mean, it's, it's funny. He said, and he got fired from his job. He worked at it and Chevrolet was a big Chevrolet dealer here in Minneapolis, in the Minneapolis area and Christmas. Cause everyone give him crap for looking like Jesus. So what, what Christmas, uh, Halloween, what does he do? He comes dressed as Jesus, but he made a cross life-size cross.

[00:37:41] And so he parked his car and walked into work with the cross. That's amazing. You're fired. You can't do that. So he opened his own shop. Anyway, he was a guy, he was one of those guys that just like, you know, there's people that are critical and there's people that everything you do is great. And he was the, everything you do is great kind of guy. And, oh yeah, well, you'll improve. You'll get better. I know you will, but this is so good right now. It's it's all right.

[00:38:08] After that, I worked for a guy, I worked for him for, but I learned how to weld and do bodywork. I learned how to use airbrushing. I had known an airbrush before, but I didn't know how to use the chemicals and the paints and automotive, which is a whole different world. And I got really good at that. Then I went into goalie masks and that guy was the opposite. Nothing was ever good enough. It's no, I remember the first thing I get in there. I'm all hot shit. Yeah. I could do this freaking thing. Right. It's a skull head. How easy is this? I'm like, there you go, man. It's done.

[00:38:38] What do you think? And he's like, ah, you know, it's a, no, that's yeah. That, you know, that looks, um, that looks good. And he took his rag and dipped it in the mineral spirits and wiped all the paint I just did for the last five hours right off. And he goes, it's just not quite what I'm looking for. And I was, you know, you need to be humbled sometimes. So after working for four years for somebody that told me everything I did was awesome. And it wasn't, let's just be honest. It wasn't when, when something could have been better.

[00:39:05] He just didn't, he, you know, and this guy was like, just, and I worked for him for three years too, just doing goalie masks, nothing but goalie masks. But I was doing one or two a day for three years. Boy. And having some, and he was a nice guy. He wasn't a jerk about it. He was just like, Hey, this should be a little, you know, see how this line, you see how the end that line, it's the, you can see the brush marks. You know, like you had two pieces on a pinstripe to come around and they do this. No, it has, it has to be perfect. It has to meet. It has to meet and be a perfect.

[00:39:35] Okay. Well, he made me, he forced me to be in a way that it was, I wouldn't say forced. He motivated me. That's the best word to make sure those lines came to a point to make sure everything was clean and perfect. And cause everything had to look real graphic and it was a different, totally different style than I'd ever done, but I've always wanted to do that. So, um, you know, I did that for years.

[00:40:01] Well, that's what I mean is that like, you know, there's another word along with liberty that the people get wrong or freedom and choice and it's fear and the Bible. And God tells us to fear not, but it also states like in Proverbs, you know, fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Yeah. And people don't understand what that means, but like, it's less fear.

[00:40:30] And who knows what the original language was because it's Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and they might've had a more nuanced word, but it's really when people hear that, they think that you're, you know, you'd be ashamed. There is a level of that, but it's like this self critique. What he was drilling in you is this precision, this discipline, this, this wanting to get it

[00:41:00] right, like wanting to please him. He was teaching you an eye to look for and hone that level of not perfection, but he could, if he could see it off, he wanted you to see it off. And that's what God teaches us. He teaches us his view. He wants us to try to walk with him as best we can. So that when, you know, like he wants us to want to be with him.

[00:41:27] And so that's more it is that I want to make, like, you wanted to make your dad proud and hang something on the, I want to make God proud of me. So I want, I want to understand what is expected. And that's the same thing is that in, and on the converse though, with art. And that's what I was getting at when I mean, like, it can get really dark is that you can

[00:41:56] go the opposite way. You cannot care and you can bend. You can completely abandon morality. You can completely abandon things and you can rip apart things and dismantle things. And you can sin within sin, within sin, within art, because you can run the most deviant things, you know, through your art.

[00:42:21] And it can, it can be a destructive thing too, which is nice in some way because you're, you're able to wrestle with it. But the sooner, as soon as it becomes something that's famous or that you put out in the world, then it's immediately an influence. And, and that's, that's kind of why I like it too, is because it's, it's, it's, it convicts you because

[00:42:47] when you see what other people get from it and how they respond and what it produces in them, then you're like, whoa, I, you're either like, whoa, that's exactly what I wanted. Or, oh, I did not want that. Yeah. I did not want that. And it becomes this very interesting, you know, I don't know, move, moving ability to, like I said, wrestle with God, wrestle with your reality, wrestle with the people.

[00:43:17] And, and in only a way that you can do it. And then you can, you can troubleshoot your relationships, how people feel, how they respond, what they see, what they don't see. And it's crazy because you can say, show the same thing to a couple of different people. They'll see all different kinds of things. Totally different stuff. Yep. A child might be able to say for something that an adult can't, you know, it's weird. It's very interesting. When I was doing these, you know, I showed you some of the, the, the drawings that I had done on the sermon notes. I love them. In the beginning.

[00:43:46] I think you should make them into a coloring book. I think that would be incredible. They should be into a book. We, well, we, we did that one. We were going to do some more, but then I moved away, but I am going to do some more with them because I really enjoyed that. Yeah. Not only was it just an excellent exercise in sketching and it was purely for myself, but from when I started and people kind of gave me that is even paying attention. You know, those people in church is those, well, I've been coming here for 25 years and you're not even listening.

[00:44:13] It went from that to me giving sermons in front of the 2,500 people doing this stuff. Yeah. And it got to a point where, and I really enjoyed it. It, and I'm not gonna lie. Half of it was because of my frigging ego. But as I'm walking out, what'd you draw today? What would you do today? Because people started to notice it. Yeah. And I've got hundreds of them. I'm sure it helped them. I'm sure it helped them really lock in the sermon too.

[00:44:41] To have a visual is very important. And, and what, like what you said, people would look at it and I'd never explain it to them right away. I just say, this is what I did today. And just to hear what they say, because some days they'd come out of left field with something. And I'm like, wow, I didn't think of that. You saw that in there. Wow. Other place, but it was like, oh, oh, that's this. And this is where you're talking about that. And it made sense. Yeah. And other people just said, I have no idea what that is. And then I'd explain it to them. You know, I showed you the one earlier, the fire.

[00:45:10] Here, I can, should I bring that up again? Because we're talking about. It was really good. Let me share the screen here. Do do, do, do, do, do, do. Share screen. It looks like, is that sharing? Yeah. All right. So this was, uh, life works better in community. This was the, the, the speech of that day. So this is 2013, 2014, somewhere in there. I can remember what that sermon was talking about, you know, because of this drawing.

[00:45:40] And we were, it was just talking about how communities is the best. And, you know, uh, there's a leap of faith that you need to take. And, you know, you may be okay if you don't take that leap of faith, but you'll be so much better off if you do take that leap. So the community of this particular picture is the community of, um, firemen. Yeah. You know, it's just like, all right, you're three, four stories up there. Everything's on fire. The stuff under you is just starting to smoke.

[00:46:06] You know, uh, you should probably, you should probably, you might be okay, but you should probably jump, take the leap. Yeah. And it's that kind of thing. You know, as we go through them, you know, so many of these, this was just problems. There's some water. There's some water. Yeah. So this was, this was, uh, lessons after lessons after the Red Sea. So there's the Red Sea with people walking through it. Oh, I love it. That's great. It was me dealing with problems of drinking and then, you know, I still drink, but I don't know like I used to.

[00:46:35] And, um, just some different things. I was having car problems. I was having problems with my feet. I was, I felt like I was falling down and it's, these are all just little sketches. I did, you know, this was a, a snowy road and you know that you have snow out there. You get on those roads, you go around the bend. You cannot see around that bend. Yeah. It's the fog of war, but there's a faith that you have when you go around to snowy bend in a snowy corner that you can't see around. You have faith that nothing else is coming and you can continue going on because that faith is, that faith is strength.

[00:47:05] So that's kind of a car. Yeah. The little car, the little car there's pretty funny. The little car there. The drive it home. Yeah. That was so great. Um, this was just, you know, spreading the word, you know, as a prism, how you can, how you, how just your own, your own speech. You never know where that's going to lead to in other people's minds. Um, this was, let's see. Well, this one I showed you earlier.

[00:47:29] This was, this was a David Goliath story, you know, and just, you know, in the face of a beast, you have to stand up because you don't know if you can beat him or not. Um, and obviously he did. Yeah. So that worked out. But these are all, this was one of my favorite. This is, oops, this is Fisher of Man. So this is a sermon that when he talked about it, it finally made sense to me.

[00:47:55] I'm like, Oh, Jesus really does want everybody, you know? And, uh, so this was, uh, I think I just watched, uh, the perfect storm or something like that. Cause it has that feel to it. So, you know, if you look at this, everything has some, some symbolism in it, you know, the, the guy sitting there in his, in his life raft and there's a shark coming at him. There's waves everywhere. The fishing tackles out so they can catch him.

[00:48:22] Um, but what you're seeing a top is the projection of the, of grace off of the top of the boat. That's what those concentric circles are and stuff like that. And that's kind of a recurring theme. I do that, you know, this was, you know, when you do the circles, that's like your idea of grace. Well, it's the circle, the circles, as they come out is also like a, um, I feel like it's like a piercing of the veil. It's sort of a piercing of it, but the spreading like, like a ripple in a pond, it just spreads.

[00:48:50] And you cannot stop a ripple. You can't. And that's what grace is. Yeah. Um, this was the story of, you know, why are you talking about the speck in my eye when you have a plank in yours? And this is just the plank being removed saying, see, this is a big log in your eye, baby. Yeah. And again, these are, these are not one of them takes more than 15 minutes. So that they're all pretty rough.

[00:49:14] Um, they're incredible to me, honestly, cause I don't know if I could draw this well in 15 minutes. They're very good fast. The size is well, the size of that one I sent you. So it's exactly half of a eight and a half by 11 sheet. It don't matter. Small doesn't, small doesn't mean. I use a little pen. You'll know when you get into that big painting.

[00:49:38] Cause cause size isn't necessarily sometimes small means that it's harder because it's, you have to, you know, like you have to create more with less. You have to, there's a little more thinking through, I think on a small one. Yeah. There's less margin for error. Plus when you're able to get big, you're able to get your whole arm into it too. Yes. It's nice. Um, but yeah, these are great.

[00:50:06] This one was just, uh, you know, this was the, you know, affirm the spiritual growth to see. So my thought on this was you're in a, you're in a parking ramp that you can't find your car, but the, you're only not looking for your car. You're looking for something bigger. So this is where the lady with the nice little thumbnail hits the button. And you can see the, the, the flashing down in the end is actually, it's actually the grace of God. Oh, wow. And that's why it says save on the top there. Just that, you know, that you can do it.

[00:50:34] You know, the light at the end of the tunnel, that one's pretty cliche. Um, you know, this is the, the, your God lurks around every corner. So the grace coming up from the bottom of the cross is finding you in your dark alley on a rainy night. Kind of thing. Kind of thing. Well, you talk about getting dark. You should give him a Peaky Blinders hat. It is. It has a Peaky Blinders feel to it. It gets a little, a lot of these are actually really dark. You talked about it. You know, I'm in church drawing these dark things.

[00:51:03] Um, this was, it's comedic. Yeah. That's what I love about this too, is that it's, it's like you said that you have those parishioners that go and they're like, you're not even paying attention. And that is the one thing in my church isn't like it. Not for the most part. Sometimes people get really serious, but I'm just like, when I, especially when I see it online or when I, you know, they're literally the definition of a Bible thumper. They're like beating you over the head with it.

[00:51:30] I'm like, guys, you need to be funny. Like, it's hilarious. Life is hilarious. It is ridiculous and hilarious. And God is fine with us laughing. Well, and this, this one here is perfect example of that. So this was, this was, I'm deep, deep into political activism here. And, you know, he was just talking about, uh, you know, the, are you a fan or a follower and stuff like that?

[00:52:00] And I really believe that divine providence is what formed this country. It came straight from God. It was. We've, we've managed to screw it up pretty good. Um, but this was just kind of that, you know, here, here's like, here, it's a, he's got the Superman. It was the cross with the Superman with, with JC as the letters, of course, and there's lightning and all fire and brimstone, all kinds of things happen. But he's, he's, he's standing there for us. That's awesome.

[00:52:26] Uh, this was a, this was a gentleman that was crippled and he came from, um, uh, it's Craig Steven Smith. His name was, yes, 2013. He, he, uh, he had a horrible story about a crash and all kinds of thing. And just his, his redemption story was just really incredible. So when I was done with this, I quick ran into the, the, the, the, the, the office and Xeroxed it and gave him the original and signed it for him.

[00:52:49] Oh, and then this was, this was how this was basically God containing a nuclear catastrophe meltdown of the earth. Oh, wow. And so that's awesome. It's, you know, uh, it was, it was controlling anger before it controls you was the sermon. Oh, I like it. That whole thing is, it's kind of a steampunk cross holding back a nuclear explosion. You can see on the bottom, the houses get blown to oblivion. That's gotta be fun.

[00:53:19] It's a dark one. And I had a blue pen that day. But it's fun. Like I, you know, it, so as I'm looking at these two and I had this idea, um, well, I have, I have a few announcements for you because I know that you and I have wanted to collaborate for a few things. Um, but this actually occurred to me in church, uh, today, um, you know, how we doing tober, right? Yes.

[00:53:47] So I met recently two young people who, um, they're trying to cipher the Bible into all these languages that don't have. Like they're not written. They're only spoken and the people who spike. So they're trying to get the Bible out into every language and they're working with these people.

[00:54:14] And so, you know, they're, they talk about like these concepts, like of, of, you know, how do you explain certain things, you know, to these people from different cultures and different tribes and stuff. And I thought about it today. And I was like, well, what if we had these words that are complex, like that, that are in the Bible that mean these things.

[00:54:41] And we gave them, you know, as like an, a prompt to artists and we had it be like a prompt exercise that people could just from the internet. Put their artistic interpretation of this thing and they could show this artistic interpretation of multicultural, multiple people tackling this word. And maybe that could be the way that they translate the Bible better. I like that. I thought it'd be cool.

[00:55:11] Right? I thought, well, look at what's happened with Inktober. I mean, there's, I don't know how many hundreds of thousands of artists. Yeah. Just go anywhere and hashtag Inktober search. And it's like, get ready. Cause you're in for three, four hours of just looking at stuff. Yeah. Well, I mean, think about what kind of like visual, because they said, and they kind of rolled their eyes at me and I was like, okay, I get what you're saying. Because they said we hired an artist once to try and do that.

[00:55:37] And the issue is, is that, that he did, you know, his, they were, they were kind of like his artsy thing, you know, his interpretation. And I was like, Hmm, that is what an artist does. Well, and there are artists and there are people like us that are commercial artists. And there is a difference with that. When you, when you have to make a product for a person and you're having to combine your talents with what they're looking for, it's, it's different.

[00:56:08] Um, and you know, so I'm listening to them and, and they're, they're talking about the multicultural kind of things and, you know, the different, um, ways, their theologies, philosophies, their interactions. There's like, you know, their, their perception is very married to their environments. And when you don't understand their environments, you, you make different correlations with your environment than you would.

[00:56:33] Like if you grew up in the desert, you know, like you'd have like being in snow would blow your mind. You know, like I'm saying like demographics are like where you grew up and why you grew up and why you do certain things. It's, it's very married to your experience. And so when you grow up in these cultures, their cultural understanding of certain things and words there, it's very particular.

[00:56:58] And, you know, like Hebrew, for example, like the nuance to certain words is very specific. And our words don't even come close to the vastness of some of those words as far as their meaning. So that's what challenge they were kind of taking on. They were trying to communicate this to me. And I was like, yeah, I get what you're saying. I'm not saying I would make a art piece. I'm saying I would go with you.

[00:57:26] I would go to Pittsburgh and be in the room and like try to assist you on hand. But as I was thinking about it today, I was just thinking about because I have a new thing coming down the pipeline, which is really exciting. And it's getting me thinking about a lot of different ways that I can deliver art, but also deliver God to people because it's, it's important to me at this point that it's both.

[00:57:51] And my parents recently told me that I could assume their building their commercial building and I could teach art out of it. Oh, and I'm. Is there an apartment place that me and Stacy can live? Maybe we'll come out and I'll be a. Probably make that. I mean, you can stay with us wherever. But the thing that I want to do is I want to stream as well. Yeah. And and and do both because there's no reason why I couldn't.

[00:58:19] If I'm already doing it physically, I could put up, you know, a couple cameras. And and, you know, hire assistants. Rika could probably help me with some of it, too. And and have a couple monitors, you know, just TVs that I, you know, that's what I do through. I mean, yeah, exactly. I got a TV right there. Yeah. And I found that in the computer age, being able to have your reference art on not a piece of paper printout, which I used to think that was awesome.

[00:58:49] Now I have it on a 42 inch screen. I can zoom in and out. Yeah. It's hey, I I'm down. So if you want to do that and do some streaming. I know that you wanted to do. I'd love to do that with you. I know. And I think we could really uplift each other in the ways that we both admire each other's, too, because I would love some competency. Of like 3D design and CAD programs and things like that. You're going to have to be patient with me, but I learned it.

[00:59:19] Oh, I learned it. They're like, here's your computer. Solidworks is on there. Make parts. And I'm like, OK, but I know you wanted to do portraits and stuff. And so I plan on hiring new models and things like that. I plan on doing like drilling like that and, you know, hiring somebody to sit for like a portrait session. And so I could I can teach all those things virtually. I know.

[00:59:44] And have, you know, have a camera on there and we could check in with each other and you'd get the benefit of the group. I think that would be really fun. We both are on what I call the same page. Yes. It's one of the things that I've looked at doing for a long time. We both were on the Nomad Network, which I really miss that. That was a that was the best online place. Thank God. I really wish I would have met Jason in person. I'll tell him that. I know you've seen him a couple of times. In a few weeks we're having dinner.

[01:00:13] So I would love to give him a hug for me, please. I will do that. I owe him a hug. The being able to do that deal. I'm going to develop a coursework. I my problem was I can't I don't have the time. Or just mental ability to just put together a course and record it and put it out there and say here, this is how you do this. What I can do is like what you and me are doing right here. Yeah.

[01:00:41] You know, I know right now with the technology, it's easy to. So I have. I can show it here. I'd be able to do without. I'm not going to see my camera. I bought one of these. It's a way calm one. Okay, you can draw great. They're amazing. Oh, it's unbelievable. So this is what I did in both my coloring books on. So I do all my ink. I do. I was wondering if you had an iPad because you could do the same thing on iPad, but that's great. I love wake comes because their pens are so much better. Yes.

[01:01:12] It's like it's literally touch sensitive. Yes. Like drawing with a pen, but also so when I'm done, I don't have to go through because I've got two years of ink tobers hanging on the wall that I need to make into coloring books, but I got to scan them, clean them all up, you know, do all this is just done. Save, you know, save as PSD file done. Send it to the printer. Yeah. I love it. But because of that now with that, because you can do that now we can do that digitally right there online in a zoom call like this. Yeah.

[01:01:40] I bought a stream deck about a month ago that controls multiple cameras and you can go back and back and you know, all kinds of crazy stuff. I didn't set it up here tonight, but in. Um, so we can, you can have one screen just doing that with the drawing with you in the corner talking about it. Yeah. And then people can send in, you know, think about this. So not everyone has the same technology, but as you're doing this, people just say,

[01:02:06] all right, you know, uh, take, take a picture of what you're working on. You get a good straight up and down picture of it. So it's not a weird angle and put it in the comments. Then you can grab it out of the comments, put it on that and work right on the thing that they did that seconds before that they were working on and say, here's what you've done. This is great. You get the right idea here, but this is where your perspective is off. Yeah. This is where foreshadowing comes in or maybe think about moving the foreground in the background. Yeah.

[01:02:33] You could do those things right there live and show them and then send it back to them. Yeah. And then they have it. I definitely want to conscript some of my friends to help me co-teach because I think it's, it's important to have, have, you know, multiple eyes on that. Plus I'll, I'll learn a lot from you by having that happen. And I think it would be fun for me too. You know, like. Totally. Are you kidding me? Having that. To, to, to have in also it makes it a little bit easier.

[01:03:04] Yeah. You get some people, you know, like, Hey, I'm in whatever you want. Okay. It's the, the lesson that I, I, I teach, I've taught a bunch of times. It always gets the biggest push on, on social media is when I do Chrome. It's my thing. I mean, I do Chrome. I can draw Chrome like crazy and there's a, the basic of basic little rule to do it. And once you know those rules, it's not hard. Right. It's just a matter of doing it.

[01:03:33] So those kinds of things are great. Like materials and things like that. I like doing that stuff. Um, right. Sketching quickly. I had a John, John G actually, his name is Gianni Gianni Gianfagna about as Italian as the name as you can get. Yeah. He was my visual representation teacher. And he's the one that really turned me on to marker rendering. Cause we were doing, you know, and doing product design, everything back then wasn't in the computer. You drew it out. Right.

[01:04:01] You drew it on pencil and you had to do, you know, maybe you had to do 10 different variations of a bottle of soap or some shit like that, which sounds boring as hell. I could not get enough of that, man. I was like, all right, this one's yellow and it's got like a green top. This one's got like a cow pattern on it. And this one's furry, you know, it's like, you know, and he made us make a file of all the different, um, like it was, he called it a morgue file of, this is how you draw a stack of pennies in copper. What if they're, what if they're dirty? What if they're clean?

[01:04:32] So we'd have to do these exercises. Right. You end up with this morgue file of, this is how we did. I use these markers in this color. Well, it makes you think about it when you have to write it down. Yeah. But he was the greatest. And he also said, here's the deal. If you're in the boardroom pitching some idea and there's seven other people in there pitching their ideas and you're the one that can go up to the, up to the dry erase board and really, really nail it and, and, and, you know, be able to, to, to, um, connotate what you

[01:05:02] want to do in, in a drawing that's in three dimension. It looks good just with some simple artistic tricks. Really. It's just, it's the smoke and mirrors on some parts of it, just to make things look good. Um, you're going to be way ahead of everybody else. I mean, screw in the boardroom. I can, I can give you a perfect example of that. I was, my dad sent me off to, um, uh, for all the hairstylists out there. Oh, sure.

[01:05:26] He sent me off to the Aquage Academy to take precision cutting, up dues and hair photography classes, um, with the Aquage Academy in, um, in Florida. And I was sitting there and my notes were not notes. They were drawings of what was happening. And Louise Alvarez, who was the vice president of the company said, I want you. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, everybody look at her notes.

[01:05:56] He's like, this is an unbelievable. I want you, I want you to work for me. Wow. And I was like, well, you can't have me. I'm, I'm my dad's. I'm here. I'm, I'm from Maryland, man. Like, and I, you know, like I completely shut him down. And he was like, what? I was like, like, I don't think he had ever been like, no, but he, he was sincere. He was like, this is incredible because he knew that I could visualize everything that he was saying.

[01:06:25] And that, that, that made me instantly a quicker learner. And then I could, you know, he could, he could mold that a lot more, but yeah, you're right. It, it, when, when you're able to show things that way, I, I probably would have been able to help him teach in so many different ways that. Sure. Yeah. Well, if you look at the masters going back in history and you look at their sketchbooks of nonsense. Oh, it's not nonsense.

[01:06:55] You're like, you're like, you can, you can, you can see the transitions. You can see the flow. You can see the progression of everything. Um, it is, it, I think that the blessing of AI is that people that are actually doing real art right now are getting much more appreciated. Now there's a lot of AI out there that's doing a bunch of crap. I use it all the time. I love it, but not to create art.

[01:07:24] I use it to go, well, I'm going to do this illustration of something. And in the past, if I wanted some reference material, I'd go to, um, books, I'd go online. I just scour through images of sunsets or mountains or water or whatever. Now I can prompt something. And I use AI in the commercial art world as a way of quickly getting reference material together that I would have spent hours gathering.

[01:07:54] So case in point, I did a truck. It was a 1953 turquoise blue metallic Chevy pickup. And the guy sent me a picture of his dad's truck and it was half in the shadow, you know, outside the garage with dumpsters. It was just folks, when you send artwork or when you send pictures to artists to have them do something, the better the picture, the better the art's going to be. And the less we're going to charge for it. Yeah.

[01:08:22] But they said, they said the picture was good enough for, to get the details of the truck, but I wanted to put it, you know, on a lake, you know, like, like there's a park by a, a lake and trees in the background and a bright sunny day. And then, so I was able to tell AI, Hey, put a 1953 Chevrolet turquoise metallic truck next to a lake on a bright sunny day and give me some ideas. Right. And the ideas they came up with were fantastic.

[01:08:50] I took them, I brought them all into Photoshop, cut, pasted, and I made my reference photo. So I still took all of these elements that I created and brought them into one. Now, if they wanted to have it in front of their house, I would put it in front of their house. No problem. But coming up with the, what is the most complimentary image that I can connotate online using AI to

[01:09:18] really celebrate the main focus of the, of the drawing or painting? It really is an accelerant tool. Once you already have the skillset to translate it, you know, it's just, it is a very fast, um, referencing tool. Well, you know what I like it for what I've been using it for recently, because I have this new, um, um, want to teach.

[01:09:38] I've been asking about frequently, um, like within art, I ask it questions like, um, what are people most scared of when it comes to art? What are their common frustrations? Yeah. What are some of that out? Yeah. And I, I like, I like the analytical, you know, like that bulk analysis it can do of frequently asked questions that most people have regarding a certain thing so that you

[01:10:06] can kind of come to the core of what most people are going to come to you for. And I'm asking of you. And I think it's really interesting to see those things. I also love AI because you know, it's made by humans. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a copy of a copy of a copy. Um, yeah. Until you look at the hands or the feet. Cause it can't do it. Or lettering anything that has words or logos in it. Can't do it.

[01:10:36] But it's also blocks in humans. Like, honestly, those are things that are hard for humans to do. If you look at AI at a glance, it looks like a photograph. If you want it to look at a glance, but spend 20 minutes. 12 seconds looking deeper in there and you start to see little, you know, the hair is not right. Or the, or, or, you know, the eye has two pupils, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:11:04] But it's interesting because what I like about it is it shows, if you have a discerning eye as an artist, you're like, how did they get away with this? When I looked at that as an artist, I'm like, damn, look, that's perfect. It's a, it's a, yeah. That's a hamster with sunglasses drinking a glass of tea. Yeah. Wow. Perfect. When you start looking at it, it's not, but that's what we do as artists. Yeah. That's what we do. We're taking some crazy idea in our brain, making marks on something to show somebody

[01:11:33] else to make them think of the same thing that's in our brain. Well, it's a, it's a 2d surface. If it's, if it's that kind of art that we create the illusion of 3d. So we're, we're using, we're using trickery already to, to show something. And in the beauty industry, it's the same way. It's just, it's, you're, you're using certain things that are grounded in foundational art principles like balance and textures and things like that.

[01:12:01] And you're, you're, you're making somebody, you know, into something that, that is a heightened version of what they are. Um, and you know how to do it. And it's a, it's a trickery of the eye. Cause if you got really close, you'd be like all the pores, you'd see the makeup, you'd see, you'd see the bobby pins you'd see, but you know, at a normal distance. Yeah, exactly. You know, you'd see all the things, but you know, who gets that close, you know, like they don't and they shouldn't.

[01:12:28] So that, that, that just the perception of what you're seeing, again, it gets to draw what you see, not what you think you see. That has always been my problem. I still look at things going, what do I really see here? You know, but yeah. I think my drills would really help you, but see, you draw fast already. So I draw fast. I just need to be.

[01:12:55] So like in, in, in the human form, if I spend the time, I can do it. Right. I can't draw the human form fast. They always look cartoony in, in, on all those, those church things. You can see it. They're all, everything's wacky. Some of them are aren't because I was able to spend the time on it and, and, you know, get proportions. I understand the body, the muscles. I understand that, but the, I tend to build stuff geometrically.

[01:13:25] Yes. Rather than just the feel. So that's where I lose it. And also it's just, I haven't done it. You know, I just started doing animals like five, six years ago. And I did, I did a, a six paintings of horses for my, my cousin. And I realized what, wait a minute. Oh, wow. I can do this. Yeah. I can do. And it was like, I can do this. It was for my cousin. So I'm like, they'll be fine. You know what I mean? It was one of those. It'll be good. She'll love it.

[01:13:53] And I knew I can, I can pull off anything to make somebody happy if I'm not charging them much money. Yeah. But I really wanted them to be nice. And so, and I look at them now and I'm like, oh, I can do so much better now. But horses are so similar to automobiles in so many ways. There's so many weird little nuances and horses all have a sheen to them. They're not flat. Like most animals, horses are, you know, there's a sheen, there's reflections, there's bounced light.

[01:14:21] There's all kinds of different, you know, like when you're drawing a cat, it's just a whole bunch of fur. It's a lot of fur. You know, the, the eyes, you know, when I do animals, this is what I found with animals. If I couldn't like nail it, I could always nail the eyes. I'm great with eyes. Do you know why? Cause there's shiny things like a car's wheel. Yes. You know, so. There's light reflection that. Yes. And there's a depth, there's a membrane that you have to see through. And how do you make that work? And that's all, that's all geometry. Yeah.

[01:14:49] You know, there's a space that's round, that's wet and that has a shine to it. So that has the highlights, but the stuff underneath of it, you know, the highlight goes through and puts light on the inside. And that's how you get those depth in the eyes. Yeah. You know, and this is the other thing. I just find that so simple. Yeah. Like, why can't anyone do that? And then. That was always my thing. I was able to do that really quickly. Yeah. I, I'm attracted to eyes like. Me too.

[01:15:17] Cause that's my favorite part of a person is their eyes. Like, cause it's the window to the soul, you know, like you, you see everything when you see somebody's eyes. So that's, that's what, that's what attracts me to a person. I know it's like campy, but that's true. What's true. Most stuff that's campy is usually true. Yeah. Like I just, I don't know. And, and there's so much personality and eyes. Um, but yeah, like that was always my thing too.

[01:15:44] I got into a lot of, I actually got a, a job working with a ceramic teacher for one. Cause I took one of her classes and, um, in high school, they make you at least in Maryland, they did in my times line. You couldn't graduate unless you had a certain amount of community service hours. Oh, okay. They, they forced you to do 72 hours of community service. Um, which is not a small amount of time, honestly. That's quite a bit. Yeah. Two weeks, two weeks of work almost.

[01:16:14] It's, it's, it's, it's significant for college or not a college, a high school student to do. And so she taught brownies sometimes. So we were like, well, and she really wanted me to stay on and help her classes. Cause I could do eyes and she couldn't really do eyes. And that's what would make the, the ceramic look so much more lifelike. It's if you could make the eye look good and I could always do them. And she was like, I need a, okay. And my mom's like, well, can we like combine this?

[01:16:43] And can she get these credits helping you? And she's like, I guess we can figure it out. Yeah. I did that too. I taught, I, I, I taught our, uh, um, I TA'd in the visual representation class, the drawing class. Oh, nice. And then I ended up teaching it one year too. And it was, it, it was fun. I really, I really enjoyed it because showing someone the skills that someone that has the,

[01:17:10] the drive to do it when you show them the skills that they didn't need, they, they didn't know they needed and it clicks. There's nothing better in the world of a feeling for me than to show somebody else here, try it like this and then have them take off and just rock. I mean, it's, this is apprentice diaries, you know? Yes. That's what it's all better when you can be asked to like, I, yeah. And the teaching kind of thing is that like, they're coming to you for the information.

[01:17:37] I love the guy that he's, he's constantly asking you questions. Um, I'm pretty brutal for, with people when they just show me their art. Right. Because I don't know what to say. I'm, I'm like, I just want to be honest. I have to ask the question, why am I looking at this? And they're just like, well, I do art. I'm like, oh, that's nice. I, I do too. Yeah. Yay. Good for you. Yeah.

[01:18:07] Look at that. But like, what do you do it for? And what are you hoping to do it for? Because that's going to determine what I say right now. Right. To you. It, that's a very good point because there is a difference between someone that's just does it and is happy with everything they do and someone that wants to do it. Yeah. Because if you want to do it, like you said, you have to be able to be tore down. Yes.

[01:18:37] I had this one guy who was like, I, I was looking at stuff and I was like, you know, what, what, what's the deal here? Like, what are you? And he's like, well, I'm, I'm, I'm drilling myself for like 10 minutes. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm trying to do these in 10 minutes as quickly as I can. I'm like, why, why are you doing them as fast as you can? And he's like, well, because you know, I, I gotta be able to get them out. And I'm like, well, first you have to slow down and do it. It's going to be good. Right. Then you got to get them fast.

[01:19:07] Yeah. Then you can be fast once you do it. Right. And I'm like, you know, yeah, you gotta, you gotta do it well first. And I was like, these are, these are showing that they are fast, you know, like things that look like they were done fast. You're not, you're not, you're not, you're not fulfilling, you know, a good dancer makes it look easy. It's not easy though. So I'll bring up, I'll bring up tower of power again, the band.

[01:19:36] If you're not familiar with tower of power, go look up tower of power. They're awesome. Okay. But I don't think I am there. They were, they were, they're a horn band. Like from the seventies that, that they're still playing. These guys just in their mid seventies now. And they're still playing. Anyway, the drummer, David Garibaldi was just a phenomenal drummer, just super intricate and just all kinds of crazy, like funk, you know, like good old seventies horn funk. And, um, they've tower of power horn section.

[01:20:06] It's like a 10 piece band. The horn sections played on every album that you've ever had horns heard on. I mean, they're just like everywhere. They're the, they're the people that you go to. They're out of Oakland, California. Anyway, they, um, David Garibaldi, when I finally saw him play live, cause he was gone for a while with the band. They came back. I saw, I finally playing, he's playing all this stuff. And in my mind, I had pictured what he's going to look like playing. Cause I mean, like I said, I played scene rush did in, in the who, and these guys are there everywhere.

[01:20:35] You know, they're just animals like animals from the Muppets. That's what I figured this guy couldn't have played drums any less. However, all of the sounds that come out of it were all the sounds. And he's just like, no. And I'm like, such an economy of movement is how he did it. That's how my friend Hillary Jones plays.

[01:21:00] My God, that was, you know, I remember Minneapolis here in the, in the nineties, when I had the band, we'd go after practice to a bar called, um, bunkers and Dr. Mambo's combo would be there. And it was all a bunch of studio guys from like, from Paisley park and, and Michael Bland who was Prince's drummer at the time would, he was the drummer for this thing. It was that level of people and Michael Bland went 450, 460, just an enormous dude. Wow.

[01:21:30] And, um, again, an absolute animal on the drums. And he up there and when you're that big and you're moving, you're hitting drums, everything's moving. I mean, it just looked like the whole thing was going to come down. That's what I'm expecting. And I see that in that, you know, I go to see David. Less is more. Go, go, go. Yeah. Less is more. And, um, that is definitely something that I think both Ken and I probably struggle with given the length of this podcast.

[01:21:58] Um, uh, you can, you can find Ken at mad case studios. Uh, he is a fantastic human artist, a man of God, a friend, all of these things. I am so grateful to have him and his friendship in my life. A special shout out to Jason Stapleton for kind of being the conduit to our lives.

[01:22:23] Um, I guess I should thank God really because God put me in alignment with Jason. Uh, if you're new to the show, this all transpired pretty much via COVID. Um, I was very angry and I was still doing the podcast and I was kind of like, and you can go back. I mean, I don't have anything to hide, but I was really emotional and sharing maybe over sharing.

[01:22:51] I don't, I don't know if there is such a thing as an artist. I think that it's just being vulnerable and being, um, open and maybe too open, but I was sharing a lot. Uh, and my audio engineer, he put me on to Jason Stapleton's podcast, which he, I think still does a show. It's called the Jason Stapleton program. Um, but, um, it was called wealth, power and influence.

[01:23:19] And I started listening to it and I just felt instantly in love. And it was, it, it was very healthy, I guess, for me to, uh, follow that path because through him, I had the pleasure of meeting Ken and, uh, my friend Nicole DeRoy, uh, who's also been on the show. Our friend, um, uh, uh, Tom ceased, uh, also, um, um,

[01:23:45] Um, oh my God, Carol LeBaron. Sorry, Carol. Why I was struggling. I was like LeBaron, LeBaron, LeBaron, Carol, Carol LeBaron. And I still have to put out a, um, part that I have recorded with Carol. I'm, I'm backlogged with her, but she is incredible. I've met so many incredible humans through Jason Stapleton and Ken just happens to be one of them.

[01:24:14] Uh, please go to his YouTube channel and check out his YouTube videos. He's always sharing. He's always interacting. He's always playing with, uh, multiple, uh, artistic, I think, um, mediums. But as you can tell in this, this podcast, uh, share that he is also trying to grow his social media presence and abilities.

[01:24:41] And, uh, I think we're all moving towards something really, really, really cool. Um, so please come back next week. I'm sure there will be more. I know there's more. Um, I haven't re-listened to it yet. I, I confess, but, uh, I know there's at least another hour and some chains worth of awesomeness ahead. So please come back for more with Ken Madden and Ken. Thank you, my friend. I am very excited for our mutual futures.

[01:25:10] You're such a gift as are all our listeners. God bless you all and have a powerful, powerful week. Thanks for listening. You can find the apprenticeship diaries on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Our IG is the underscore apprenticeship underscore diaries. If you would like to offer constructive criticism or an interview, drop us an email at the apprenticeship diaries at gmail.com.

[01:25:38] We look forward to hearing from our listeners.

[01:26:09] Hey listeners. Uh, sorry to not end this podcast where I thought I wanted to add a note. Um, I'm not exactly aware of the community. I don't know if I had a community service hours. I know it was 72 hours of community service that I had to complete, but for the life of me, I cannot remember if it was from middle school or high school.

[01:26:33] Um, I don't, I think I got it done so early that that's why, that's why it is a blur for me, but I can't be certain. And I do apologize because I'm confusing the timelines there. Um, yeah, it's hard. It's hard to remember. So I just wanted to add that note.

[01:26:56] Um, you know, until I started recording everything and having Facebook memory banks and check-ins and things like that. And, and, you know, timeline replays and stuff. I, it's kind of all the, all the blur. I mean, in some regards it's great, but in others I'm kind of like, wow, I don't, I don't fully remember all the facts of that.

[01:27:23] Um, but you know, it was a thing. I don't recall exactly what it was, if it was terrible, terrible. But I wanted, I wanted to make that clear that I, I, I couldn't remember maybe somebody in the, you know, uh, Carroll County, Maryland area can clear that up for me. Uh, if you listen, I would appreciate it. Okay. Bye. Have a powerful week.

[01:27:52] I'll leave you now. Hmm.